Are tubes more musical?

[SIY]

Good- that was really the point of my linking Bruno's paper. Since our tube amps are zero feedback they don't have rising distortion (also since they are OTLs). Our class D has plenty of gain bandwidth product so it doesn't have rising distortion with frequency either.

Just to be certain, when you said "Cut 1 and Cut 2," were those from Disk 1?

And did you hear any differences on Paul's test file?

 

[atmasphere]

Just to be certain, when you said "Cut 1 and Cut 2," were those from Disk 1?

And did you hear any differences on Paul's test file?

Algunas Bestias Is cut one. 'Sandino' is cut 4 on disk two.

I've not played the test files on anything I trust yet.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

It is this…

I agree. It's possible to build tube and solid state amplifiers which statically and dynamically have a flat gain slope from max output (before clipping) down to the noise floor. I have for some time suspected that upgrades that let one "hear more fine detail" may well be gentle compressors.

 

[JiiPee]

Tuba is a musical instrument. Tube is not.

 

[ferrellms]

What is it that I’m hearing in my tube preamp and tubed headphone amp that is so romantic, warm, soft around the edges, and smooth, even syrupy sometimes? I’m not talking about hybrid amps or tube buffers. (My headphone amp is an OTL design, my preamp has no transistors in the audio circuit.) Do tubes enhance dynamics? They seem to create a feeling of space and holographic imaging. These qualities make it great for home audio applications. Of course they add distortion but it’s pleasing to the ear. The warm sound of tubes seems perfect for laid back and acoustic music styles like jazz. In my experience, most typical solid state gear can’t perform as well for getting the presentation and emotional impact of music right. Are tubes more musical?

I used a modified Dynaco ST-70 tube amp - mods were transistor power supply, new tubes, better quality caps and resistors. The mods were an improvement over the stock and I got years of enjoyment - smooth and sweet. But unfortunately, it was underpowered and a bit noisy. Got a Carver M400 - way better in every way. I do agree that there is "tube sound" but to my ears now it is coloration.

The tube glow was very cool when listening in the dark!

 

[EERecordist]

Noise is not musicality. But it is relevant. Tube experts may comment on soft compression pre-generating harmonic distortion and musicality. With tubes the broadband noise may be perceptible vs low noise preamps and speaker amps.

I saw a study of audio tube noise figures. I can't say the study uses the same method of transistor or op amp noise. Maybe other ASR experts can comment.

Tube measurements: https://tavishdesign.com/pages/audio-tube-noise-measurments

The tube measurements are in the µV range. Transistors and op amps are in the nV range, 10-100x less. You can see that in the ASR reviews of tube amp noise and harmonics measurements.

I have also heard that measuring noise in tubes used in microphones is very hard and that Schoeps was the leader in the test equipment for that.

 

[Cbdb2]

Since our tube amps are zero feedback

How do you get consistant gain? Or do you mean zero global feedback? Bruno also says type of feedback dosnt matter, local, global, nested, the results are the same.

 

[MattHooper]

Tuba is a musical instrument. Tube is not.

Oh, ye a little imagination….

The ‘Aetherwellengeige’ was one of many instruments inspired by Leon Termen’s Theremin using the same heterodyning principle and body capacitance to generate a variable tone from two thryatron vacuum tubes

 

[mhardy6647]

Actually it's pretty straightforward to build a vacuum tube theremin. Just need two tuneable oscillators.
The only one we've built (my son & I, long ago) to date was solid state, though. Full disclosure, it was also from a kit (PAIA Theremax).
It is pretty cool.

 

[JiiPee]

Oh, ye a little imagination….

View attachment 399582
The ‘Aetherwellengeige’ was one of many instruments inspired by Leon Termen’s Theremin using the same heterodyning principle and body capacitance to generate a variable tone from two thryatron vacuum tubes

It does not look to me that a tube a as such would constitute a musical instrument in that thing. Tubes in guitar amplifiers don't make those tubes musical instruments either.

 

[MattHooper]

It does not look to me that a tube a as such would constitute a musical instrument in that thing. Tubes in guitar amplifiers don't make those tubes musical instruments either.
View attachment 399623

‘Twas a joke.

However, per Wikipedia:

A musical instrument is a device created or adapted to make musical sounds. In principle, any object that produces sound can be considered a musical instrument—it is through purpose that the object becomes a musical instrument.

Most musical instruments are made of different different parts, of course.

But it’s quite clear that the tubes in this device weren’t in the service of reproducing music, but the characteristics of the tube were a crucial element for producing the particular sound and music with this instrument.

ChatGPT:

Vacuum tubes played a crucial role in the functioning of early electronic instruments like the Aetherwellengeige and theremin. Here’s how they contributed:

1. Signal Generation:

Vacuum tubes were used to create oscillating electrical signals at specific frequencies. In the Aetherwellengeige, the player’s hand movements altered the frequency of these oscillations, which determined the pitch of the sound produced. The oscillations were generated by circuits involving vacuum tubes, which could produce continuous waveforms that were then converted into audio signals.

3. Frequency Control:

Instruments like the Aetherwellengeige relied on precise control of frequency to produce different pitches. Vacuum tubes in oscillating circuits allowed for sensitive changes in frequency when the player moved their hands, manipulating the electromagnetic fields. The vacuum tubes ensured that these changes in frequency were stable and smooth.

4. Wave Shaping:

The nature of the sound—its timbre or tonal quality—was also influenced by the design of the vacuum tube circuits. Different configurations of tubes could affect the shape of the waveform (such as sine, square, or sawtooth waves), which contributed to the instrument’s characteristic electronic sound, in this case, aiming to mimic a violin.

But I admit, I’m already bored about the prospect of a further pedantic argument over what constitutes an instrument..

It seems to me (and please correct me if I’m wrong ) your original comment implied that tubes either have no role in imposing character in music reproduction systems, or that they could not produce a character that could be coherently described as “ musical.”

If so, I disagree on both counts in principle, for reasons I’ve already stated in the thread.

Cheers

 

[JiiPee]

‘Twas a joke.

However, per Wikipedia:

A musical instrument is a device created or adapted to make musical sounds. In principle, any object that produces sound can be considered a musical instrument—it is through purpose that the object becomes a musical instrument.

Most musical instruments are made of different different parts, of course.

But it’s quite clear that the tubes in this device weren’t in the service of reproducing music, but the characteristics of the tube were a crucial element for producing the particular sound and music with this instrument.

ChatGPT:

Vacuum tubes played a crucial role in the functioning of early electronic instruments like the Aetherwellengeige and theremin. Here’s how they contributed:

1. Signal Generation:

Vacuum tubes were used to create oscillating electrical signals at specific frequencies. In the Aetherwellengeige, the player’s hand movements altered the frequency of these oscillations, which determined the pitch of the sound produced. The oscillations were generated by circuits involving vacuum tubes, which could produce continuous waveforms that were then converted into audio signals.

3. Frequency Control:

Instruments like the Aetherwellengeige relied on precise control of frequency to produce different pitches. Vacuum tubes in oscillating circuits allowed for sensitive changes in frequency when the player moved their hands, manipulating the electromagnetic fields. The vacuum tubes ensured that these changes in frequency were stable and smooth.

4. Wave Shaping:

The nature of the sound—its timbre or tonal quality—was also influenced by the design of the vacuum tube circuits. Different configurations of tubes could affect the shape of the waveform (such as sine, square, or sawtooth waves), which contributed to the instrument’s characteristic electronic sound, in this case, aiming to mimic a violin.

But I admit, I’m already bored about the prospect of a further pedantic argument over what constitutes an instrument..

It seems to me (and please correct me if I’m wrong ) your original comment implied that tubes either have no role in imposing character in music reproduction systems, or that they could not produce a character that could be coherently described as “ musical.”

If so, I disagree on both counts in principle, for reasons I’ve already stated in the thread.

Cheers

I don't claim any expertise in musical instruments, and I may be accused of being pedantic, but the way I see it, there is a distinction between four categories of technologies:

1. Creating sound/music - This is what musical instruments are for (and it may be said that humans have a capability to act as musical instruments too)

2. Recording sound/music - Technologies used for storing created music in a way that makes it possible to reproduce the stored music.

3. Sound Processing - a.k.a. audio signal processing. Technologies for manipulating the created/recorded sound.

4. Sound/music reproduction - Technologies that ASR is mainly focused on. One of the main differences between the subjectivist/objectivist approaches is that the objectivist camp makes a distinction between sound processing and sound reproduction, whereas the subjectivist camp seems to think that they should be interwoven and the task of an audiophile is to find a combination of equipment with fixed sound processing characteristics, that somehow create a happy ensemble.

A tuba is a device that can create a sounds we humans call music. A tube can be used as a component of several of the four technology categories above, but while it can modify a sound signal, it can not create a sound as such, and therefore I would not say that it is a musical instrument. OK - a tube can create a sound, if I bang it against a table, but if that is enough to classify something as a musical instrument, then just about anything qualifies as such.

 

[MattHooper]

4. Sound/music reproduction - Technologies that ASR is mainly focused on. One of the main differences between the subjectivist/objectivist approaches is that the objectivist camp makes a distinction between sound processing and sound reproduction, whereas the subjectivist camp seems to think that they should be interwoven and the task of an audiophile is to find a combination of equipment with fixed sound processing characteristics, that somehow create a happy ensemble.

I think that’s a perfectly fine distinction if you want to make it that way.

On the other hand, my account of what it means to be an “ objectivist” allows for either of the approaches you mentioned above: desiring strict neutrality, or desiring some level of pleasing colouration. The objectivist part has to do with appreciating the role of bias, the role of measurements, the role of scientific controls when necessary, and not making anti-scientific or bullshit claims of “fact” about the nature of audio equipment.

In other words, objectivist are drawn here, mostly by caring about accurate information about audio gear, not by imposing on anyone what type of gear they need to buy.

OK - a tube can create a sound, if I bang it against a table, but if that is enough to classify something as a musical instrument, then just about anything qualifies as such.

That’s why this is a debate that could never be settled.

Here’s my (proposed) tube instrument. I lightly tap on these with chopsticks to make music. Whether you like the music I create would only be a dispute of musical taste.

 

[Cbdb2]

A tube can be used as a component of several of the four technology categories above, but while it can modify a sound signal, it can not create a sound as such,

The tubes in the Theremin do create the sound, it doesn't come from the fingers. The same way the transistors in a synthesizer create the sound.

 

[JiiPee]

The tubes in the Theremin do create the sound, it doesn't come from the fingers. The same way the transistors in a synthesizer create the sound.

Tubes do NOT create the sound in Theremins and transistors do not create the sound in synthesizers. Nobody claimed that the sound is coming from fingers. Look at the picture attached in my post. To create a sound You need to somehow create a waveform. In Theremin the waveform is created with oscillators. Tubes are used as components in amplifying the manipulated waveform that is then fed to a speaker.

 

[wadude]

I don't claim any expertise in musical instruments, and I may be accused of being pedantic, but the way I see it, there is a distinction between four categories of technologies:

1. Creating sound/music - This is what musical instruments are for (and it may be said that humans have a capability to act as musical instruments too)

2. Recording sound/music - Technologies used for storing created music in a way that makes it possible to reproduce the stored music.

3. Sound Processing - a.k.a. audio signal processing. Technologies for manipulating the created/recorded sound.

4. Sound/music reproduction - Technologies that ASR is mainly focused on. One of the main differences between the subjectivist/objectivist approaches is that the objectivist camp makes a distinction between sound processing and sound reproduction, whereas the subjectivist camp seems to think that they should be interwoven and the task of an audiophile is to find a combination of equipment with fixed sound processing characteristics, that somehow create a happy ensemble.

A tuba is a device that can create a sounds we humans call music. A tube can be used as a component of several of the four technology categories above, but while it can modify a sound signal, it can not create a sound as such, and therefore I would not say that it is a musical instrument. OK - a tube can create a sound, if I bang it against a table, but if that is enough to classify something as a musical instrument, then just about anything qualifies as such.

Tubas don’t make music, people make music.

 

[JiiPee]

Tubas don’t make music, people make music.

True enough, if we use the term "music" as it is traditionally used. That's why I wrote that a musical instrument is a technical device for creating sound/music. As far as I know this is how "musical instrument" is usually defined (ref. Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia etc...). Nowadays, a computer running a suitable AI software and connected to a suitable electronic musical instrument could be said as being capable of making music.

A Theremin is a musical instrument, but a tube inside the Theremin is not. To create a sound with that tube, One has to take it away from the Theremin and use it in a "MattHooper-instrument".

 

[Chr1]

So now the question is : Which OS is more "musical" : Windows, Linux or iOS?
I hear that vintage ones like UNIX and DOS are "warmer", almost analogue...

 

[Koeitje]

But but but... They glow! They must be warmer.

I think many would be surprised at their inability to differentiate between tube vs SS, assuming neither was designed to be an intentional fuzzbox.

And are run within their specs. Most tube amplifiers don't really have much power and will struggle to reach higher SPL levels with a lot of speakers.

 

[JiiPee]

So now the question is : Which OS is more "musical" : Windows, Linux or iOS?
I hear that vintage ones like UNIX and DOS are "warmer", almost analogue...

The answer is of course none of those, but an actual analog computer.
Creating a functioning AI system capable of making music with an analog computer would be quite a task however... (I have actually done some analog computer programming when I was a student)