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Are three channels better than two for stereo reproduction?

I can walk around the room and even into the next room without any dramatic shift in tonality.
With two speakers arranged in equilateral monitoring triangle, moving to the left or right with a mono signal biases audio in the direction moved. What would ideally happen is that audio actually gets biased in the opposite direction, as if you were moving relative to a sound source between the speakers.
 
How can the audio fundamentally be considered "good" or "realistic" if slightly moving one's head to the left or right crushes the center image? This is 2D audio.
You might want to look into "time/intensity trading". Ime it calls for fairly directional loudspeakers, but can result in an enjoyable soundstage over a fairly wide listening area, though of course the imaging will be best up and down the centerline.

With two speakers arranged in equilateral monitoring triangle, moving to the left or right with a mono signal biases audio in the direction moved. What would ideally happen is that audio actually gets biased in the opposite direction, as if you were moving relative to a sound source between the speakers.
With time/intensity trading, as you move to the left the RIGHT speaker actually becomes louder. And the signal from the left speaker of course arrives first. The one partially offsets the other.
 
You might want to look into "time/intensity trading". Ime it calls for fairly directional loudspeakers, but can result in an enjoyable soundstage over a fairly wide listening area, though of course the imaging will be best up and down the centerline.


With time/intensity trading, as you move to the left the RIGHT speaker actually becomes louder. And the signal from the left speaker of course arrives first. The one partially offsets the other.
I just read this and it seems promising. Will try this next.

Would Neumann KH120iis be suitable loudspeakers for this?
 
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You might want to look into "time/intensity trading". Ime it calls for fairly directional loudspeakers, but can result in an enjoyable soundstage over a fairly wide listening area, though of course the imaging will be best up and down the centerline.


With time/intensity trading, as you move to the left the RIGHT speaker actually becomes louder. And the signal from the left speaker of course arrives first. The one partially offsets the other.
Things are not perfect, but as I move around, soundstage remains between the speakers. I think it kelps to have nondirectional speakers, and it also helps to have a willing suspension of disbelief. I appreciate that critics find flaws and provide incentives for improvement, but I choose to enjoy what I have.
 
The topic has already been discussed quite extensively, but there are a few aspects to consider as opinions (not hard facts).

Obviously, the room and the placement within the room contribute to the overall sound. Think about the angles of reflections relative to each wall. Therefore, there are optimal distances for utilizing the walls, including the rear wall for central focus. Just a reminder to experiment.

Speaker toe-in changes room reflections. Since most of us use directional speakers, changing the speaker's orientation will affect the soundstage (including focus) because the proportion of reflections from different walls changes.

When discussing the shortcomings of stereo setups, Toole pointed out that the biggest issue is the shifting of the central focus as you move around the room. From this, you might draw a reverse conclusion: if you're seated in your listening position, a center speaker might not be necessary.

And now some subjective experiences:

The only system that maintains a natural sound image everywhere in the room is one with 360-degree speakers. With all other systems, you eventually notice when you've stepped out of the sweet spot. However, it is not as good in a precise listening spot as some other speakers.

The second-best option in terms of spatial performance is speakers with a wide directional profile for high frequencies.

Strangely, both of these speaker types sound best when placed relatively far from the back wall. The central focus is also better in this setup, although it might seem logical to assume the opposite—that proximity to the back wall would provide a stronger central focus. So, there has to be an optimum distance: not too far for a reasonable reflected sound level and not too close for a relatively spacious reflection result.

On the opposite end are strange issues with AVR upmixing. If your head is fixed in the position where the setup microphone was placed, everything sounds perfect. But just 20 cm to side from that spot, the sound becomes quite ordinary. While the sound fills the room evenly, it loses its sparkle and spatial information. This effect doesn’t occur with actual multi-channel audio, such as in movies. It seems that the human brain is still a better upmixer than today’s AVRs. Toole also rightly argues in his book that once audio is recorded, it can no longer be broken down into its original components for mixing differently without losing quality.

Perhaps it’s just a preconception, but using two speakers as the source always creates a straight line, and even when you move away from the sweet spot, the speakers remain aligned. The listener is simply off-axis to the soundstage. In a multi-channel system, the situation becomes more complex. The result is neither 2D nor 3D sound but a general sound mix coming from all directions. Room reflections and other factors calculated for multi-channel systems and directed to the respective speakers still rely on the listener’s position in the sweet spot, but the actual listening position has shifted, and the expected reflections, sound timing, etc., are no longer appropriate for your brain.

This entire text is an unproven hypothesis, but perhaps some points may seem interesting and help to achieve a better listening experience.
 
I think it kelps to have nondirectional speakers...
Replying since you quoted my post about time/intensity trading, so presumably that's what you were responding to -

Imo the advantage of non-directional speakers, as far as sweet spot width goes, is that the near speaker only becomes a little bit louder than the far speaker when you move off to one side of the centerline. The image would still theoretically be pulled towards the near speaker because of its earlier arrival time.

Time/intensity trading is based on a different paradigm. It seeks to offset the earlier arrival time of the near speaker by making the far speaker louder than the near speaker. Ime a time/intensity trading setup geometry does not work well with wide-pattern speakers, and it's not possible with non-directional speakers.

Possibly anecdotally relevant to this thread, I have customers who sold their center-channel speakers after trying time/intensity trading. They preferred phantom center mode for home theater, and of course it worked well for stereo too; that's what it was originally designed for.
 
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Replying since you quoted my post about time/intensity trading, so presumably that's what you were responding to -

Imo the advantage of non-directional speakers, as far as sweet spot width goes, is that the near speaker only becomes a little bit louder than the far speaker when you move off to one side of the centerline. The image would still theoretically be pulled towards the near speaker because of its earlier arrival time.

Time/intensity trading is based on a different paradigm. It seeks to offset the earlier arrival time of the near speaker by making the far speaker louder than the near speaker. Ime a time/intensity trading setup geometry does not work well with wide-pattern speakers, and it's not possible with non-directional speakers.

Possibly anecdotally relevant to this thread, I have customers who sold their center-channel speakers after trying time/intensity trading. They preferred phantom center mode for home theater, and of course it worked well for stereo too; that's what it was originally designed for.
I don’t require the illusion of a center channel. I would like a dedicated dialog track for video. Not for music.
 
I don’t require the illusion of a center channel. I would like a dedicated dialog track for video. Not for music.

Okay.

Ime, time/intensity trading offers the closest unprocessed two-channel approximation of the ideal @LowShelfFilter described:

"What would ideally happen is that audio actually gets biased in the opposite direction, as if you were moving relative to a sound source between the speakers."

Whether that is of any utility is a matter of opinion.
 
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From David Griesinger's paper:

Griesinger Myths of Loudspeaker Imaging.jpg
 
Are there disadvantages to time/intensity trading such as not hearing the flat on axis sound and narrowing of max image width?
It is a very crude approximation. Time intensity trading is level and frequency dependent (since we use ITD and ILD differently for direction detection at different frequencies), and it is probably difficult for the setup to match the curves below,
Source:

time intensity trading.jpg
 
Are there disadvantages to time/intensity trading such as not hearing the flat on axis sound...

Ideally the speaker designer has had time/intensity trading in mind all along, such that the optimized listening angle is aimed at the central sweet spot (or close enough) when the speakers are severely toed-in with their axes criss-cross in front of the listener. My mentor Earl Geddes optimized for a listening angle about 20 degrees off-axis horizontally, and I shoot for the same general ballpark.

This usually results in the on-axis sound being a bit hotter than you would want if you were sitting directly on-axis, BUT in this case that extra high-frequency energy is going into the reflection field, which is normally (arguably) a bit short on high-frequency energy anyway. So we end up with a bit less spectral discrepancy between the direct sound and the reflections (because the right-smack-on-axis sound is going into the reflection field), which imo is desirable. At the risk of over-generalizing, imo the less spectral discrepancy between the first-arrival sound and the subsequent reflections, the better.

... and narrowing of max image width?

There is indeed a trade-off regarding maximum image width (with normal recordings) because the combination of a fairly narrow pattern (like 90 degrees ballpark, but there is some leeway) and severe toe-in minimizes the first same-side-wall reflection, which is the reflection most responsible for increasing the apparent source width, or broadening the soundstage width. But it is the earliest reflections which are the most detrimental to clarity and to image precision, so in exchange for giving up the increased apparent source width you get a bit deeper and more precise soundstage, with a bit better clarity. In practice a little bit of soundstage width can be restored by spreading the speakers slightly wider apart than normal.

With a good recording, ime a good time/intensity trading setup can achieve a "you are there" spatial quality, which is when the venue acoustic space on the recording is perceptually dominant. This is in contrast to a "they are here" spatial presentation when the "small room signature" of the playback room is perceptually dominant.

So it's a matter of personal preference. Ime "you are there" is arguably more engaging, with the sense of space varying significantly and interestingly from one recording to the next, but I must admit that it's cool to have sound images appear to the outside of the speakers on many if not most recordings.
 
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How is Dolby Pro Logic II over a 5.1 system any worse than using two channels? I want my music to sound like a live performance (3D audio), not like it's coming from two speakers. How can the audio fundamentally be considered "good" or "realistic" if slightly moving one's head to the left or right crushes the center image? This is 2D audio.
I agree with you - but the perspective of "true stereo" - ie: producing a solid realistic audio image which sounds like a live performance, has some major challenges not just at the final reproduction stage, but throughout the recording chain.

Most recordings are not capable of "sounding real" - because, to use visual art metaphors, they are performed and recorded as impressionistic or surrealistic renditions... ie: they were never meant to sound real!!

But yeah with Logic7 or PLII you can do 3 channel stereo, and the intelligent steering of the sound between the speakers can, with appropriate recordings, provide a true stereo image, and provide it across a larger listening area than merely the MLP... which is where the main benefit of 3 speaker stereo happens
 
Ok, I just tried time/intensity trading with my kh120iis and am not impressed. Moving to one side or the other does not bias audio as much, but the effect is still obviously present if seriously listening. Additionally, clarity and soundstage width were both greatly reduced. It feels like the ideal listening positioning is in front of me.
 
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Moving to one side or the other does not bias audio as much, but the effect is still obviously present if seriously listening. Additionally, clarity and soundstage width were both greatly reduced. It feels like the ideal listening positioning is in front of me.

Sounds to me like the KH120 has too wide of a pattern for time/intensity trading to work well, because obviously it didn't work.

I've never known it to work well with a speaker that small; 10" woofer with 10" waveguide is the smallest I've had good results with.

If clarity was reduced, then you're probably getting too much interaction with the front wall between the speakers, which again would happen if the pattern was too wide.
 
Sounds to me like the KH120 has too wide of a pattern for time/intensity trading to work well, because obviously it didn't work.

I've never known it to work well with a speaker that small; 10" woofer with 10" waveguide is the smallest I've had good results with.

If clarity was reduced, then you're probably getting too much interaction with the front wall between the speakers, which again would happen if the pattern was too wide.
This is too wide a pattern?
1724702593625.png

My speakers are several meters from the front wall.
 
What if time/intensity trading does not work very well and you actually need a center channel?

Well in that case, I would be completely wrong, wouldn't I?

What if your speakers are not well suited for a time/intensity trading configuration? That seems to be the case. I have never known speakers nearly as small as yours to work well in a time/intensity trading configuration.

The secret to time/intensity trading is this: The near speaker's output must fall off RAPIDLY and SMOOTHLY as we move further and further off-center. This way, for off-centerline listeners, the FAR speaker is louder than the NEAR speaker by a large enough margin to approximately offset the earlier arrival time of the near speaker.

Below is a photo of the home theater room of one of my customers, and those speakers were designed for time/intensity trading. Underneath the grille is a 12" woofer and a 12" wide constant-directivity horn whose horizontal pattern (90 degrees) matches the woofer's pattern in the crossover region (about 1.4 kHz). When he received the speakers he was using a center-channel speaker. I don't remember what it was, but it was similar in price to one of my speakers, so ballpark 2 grand fifteen years ago. I suggested he try phantom center mode, and when he did, he preferred it to using the center-channel speaker. He sold his center channel speaker. With eyes closed, the dialogue is coming from the screen from the location where the photo was taken. Several weeks ago a friend of his who works for a company that makes high-end DSP processors came over to watch a movie, and after the movie as the motorized screen went up his friend had a moment of cognitive dissonance because he was expecting to see a center channel speaker behind the screen. Of course there was none.

PhantomCenter-002.jpg
 
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Things are not perfect, but as I move around, soundstage remains between the speakers. I think it kelps to have nondirectional speakers, and it also helps to have a willing suspension of disbelief. I appreciate that critics find flaws and provide incentives for improvement, but I choose to enjoy what I have.
speakers are never non-directional. ever. they may be slightly more tolerant in positioning, but that also comes at a cost. there is zero jack of all trades in semi-audiophile deployment.

i guess we could develop DSP with a camera that watches the angle and positioning of one's head and compensates... to me part of the ritual is to sit in the perfect spot as i "audio".

if perfect positioning always is what you need, headphones set up well wirelessly may be the easier way to go.
 
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