Are three channels better than two for stereo reproduction?

[LowShelfFilter]

How far apart do you have your speakers now?

tweeters are about 80 inches apart

 

[Repdetect]

My personal experience with multichannel did not leave me begging for more. At one time I had a Parasound 5.1 AV preamp. It was pre-HDMI. best video was S-video.

The problem was not that it never sounded great; the problem was I had no content that sounded consistently good. Most things just weren’t suitable. I’m afraid I will not live to see a large catalog log of music recorded and mixed for surround.

Most of my recordings are 40 years old or more. And it will take AI or something to convert them. I think it will bee done, but not soon.

In my experience MCH SACD has been the most enjoyable for me. I find it of much higher resolution ( some symphonies have 100+ players) and better imaging than any other format. Telarc generally was the BEST! And choirs can't be beat in MCH. I've been collecting and listening since the format was introduced.

 

[LowShelfFilter]

Another issue I've noticed with just two speakers is that there is no visceral sensation, or sound power, coming from the dead center, like there would be with a real center.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

When you sit in the optimum listening position and close your eyes, you should not hear the speakers themselves, but the sources in the soundstage. If you can "locate" the speakers, something is wrong. Mono sources are especially useful for checking this.

 

[Miguelón]

Another issue I've noticed with just two speakers is that there is no visceral sensation, or sound power, coming from the dead center, like there would be with a real center.

You can hold the subwoofer over your thighs pointing against your belly, and the central visceral sensation probably scores 8/10 in Richter scale

 

[goat76]

Another issue I've noticed with just two speakers is that there is no visceral sensation, or sound power, coming from the dead center, like there would be with a real center.

You should not have less impact from phantom-centered sources as they are obviously played by the same two loudspeakers as the panned sound objects. Are you sure your speakers are playing in phase, that is the only reason I can think of that could affect the phantom sounds in the way you describe.

 

[LowShelfFilter]

You should not have less impact from phantom-centered sources as they are obviously played by the same two loudspeakers as the panned sound objects.

There is no physical sound energy emanating from the direct center with two speakers angled at +/- 30 degrees. It's not that there is less impact with phantom sources than panned, but you can tell there is no sound power from the center, like in a Dolby Cinema or IMAX theater. The way images appear in both space and timbre is far superior at Dolby Cinema or IMAX in prime seating than just having two channels.

 

[raindance]

Your original concept isn't an "upmix" it's just a straight mix and will simply cause more comb filtering that you'll notice when you move your head. In addition it adds a variable to constantly mess with rather than actually listening to the music. It would only work well if it came from the recording through a 3 channel chain.

 

[LowShelfFilter]

Your original concept isn't an "upmix" it's just a straight mix and will simply cause more comb filtering that you'll notice when you move your head. In addition it adds a variable to constantly mess with rather than actually listening to the music. It would only work well if it came from the recording through a 3 channel chain.

What I would do now is get a 5.1 system and use Dolby Pro Logic II with stereo sources and listen to Dolby Atmos normally over the 5.1 system.

 

[goat76]

There is no physical sound energy emanating from the direct center with two speakers angled at +/- 30 degrees. It's not that there is less impact with phantom sources than panned, but you can tell there is no sound power from the center, like in a Dolby Cinema or IMAX theater. The way images appear in both space and timbre is far superior at Dolby Cinema or IMAX in prime seating than just having two channels.

Are you sure you feel a difference if the sound energy is coming from the center position instead of the left and right speakers?

 

[LowShelfFilter]

Are you sure you feel a difference if the sound energy is coming from the center position instead of the left and right speakers?

yes

 

[Holmz]

There is no physical sound energy emanating from the direct center with two speakers angled at +/- 30 degrees. It's not that there is less impact with phantom sources than panned, but you can tell there is no sound power from the center, like in a Dolby Cinema or IMAX theater. The way images appear in both space and timbre is far superior at Dolby Cinema or IMAX in prime seating than just having two channels.

Are you familiar with the term “Super Position”?

 

[Petrushka]

Are you familiar with the term “Super Position”?

Some people have three ears.

 

[LowShelfFilter]

Are you familiar with the term “Super Position”?

No. What is the relevance?

 

[gwing]

Another issue I've noticed with just two speakers is that there is no visceral sensation, or sound power, coming from the dead center, like there would be with a real center.

Yes that would be correct. If you have just two speakers you'll hear it as recorded with whatever spread of instruments across the soundstage the recording contains. If there are instruments just to right and left there will be no reproduced sound appearing to come from the centre.

Now stick a third speaker in the middle with a summed mono signal and you'll hear something in the middle that shouldn't be there, especially if you turn the volume up on that centre channel. If that's what you want that's fine but it goes against the ethos of trying to play music as realistically as possible.

 

[teashea]

Considering that two speakers cannot accurately reproduce a 3D acoustic event in the first place, would using a center channel summed to mono with LR playing normally provide for a superior/more realistic listening experience than just using LR? Please note that I am not referring to listening to three channel recordings, but rather up-mixing two channel recordings to three channels.

I am considering routing audio as such with a MiniDSP 2x4 product:
Output 1: Right Speaker (Right input channel)
Output 2: Left Speaker (Left input channel)
Output 3: Center Speaker (Right + Left input channels)
Output 4: Subwoofer(s) (Right + Left input channels)

From Floyd Toole's book, there are significant acoustic advantages to using a center channel. Are there any downsides to using LCR for stereo reproduction instead of LR?
View attachment 382242 View attachment 382243

The third channel only complicates the issues. It is not a good idea.

 

[LowShelfFilter]

I think we are all in agreement at this point that simply adding a mono center channel is not particularly effective. I'm more curious about more sophisticated methods like Dolby Pro Logic II vs stereo over two speakers.

 

[Petrushka]

I think we are all in agreement at this point that simply adding a mono center channel is not particularly effective. I'm more curious about more sophisticated methods like Dolby Pro Logic II vs stereo over two speakers.

Only if the original recording was made with a center channel, and even then the playback gets complicated.

Multichannel makes sense for home theater, but it gets quit tricky for music, particularly for music not specifically designed for it.

I would like a dialog channel that didn’t require giving up stereo. A dialog soundbar that didn’t preclude stereo.

 

[LowShelfFilter]

Only if the original recording was made with a center channel, and even then the playback gets complicated.

Multichannel makes sense for home theater, but it gets quit tricky for music, particularly for music not specifically designed for it.

I would like a dialog channel that didn’t require giving up stereo. A dialog soundbar that didn’t preclude stereo.

How is Dolby Pro Logic II over a 5.1 system any worse than using two channels? I want my music to sound like a live performance (3D audio), not like it's coming from two speakers. How can the audio fundamentally be considered "good" or "realistic" if slightly moving one's head to the left or right crushes the center image? This is 2D audio.

 

[Petrushka]

How is Dolby Pro Logic II over a 5.1 system any worse than using two channels? I want my music to sound like a live performance (3D audio), not like it's coming from two speakers. How can the audio fundamentally be considered "good" or "realistic" if slightly moving one's head to the left or right crushes the center image? This is 2D audio.

I can walk around the room and even into the next room without any dramatic shift in tonality.