Are there no cheaper alternatives to the HD 800s?

[Pearljam5000]

No, all soundstage characteristics including imaging are result of frequency response at the eardrum. With just EQ, you can give any headphone any soundstage including making HD800 sound like Etymotic or making Etymotic have soundstage of HD800.

Frequency response and phase response are same thing. You can predict phase response from frequency response and vice versa. You cant change frequency response without changing phase response.

Its like waterfall plots and impulse response, we measure both, talk about both but they are in reallity the same thing. In terms of soundstage, frequency response is all that matters, phase ofcourse follows the FR. Any complex analysis of the physical configuration of the driver and earcup is unnecessary since it all comes down to frequency response.

And, yes, I am aware phase shifting filters and linear phase filters exist, these dont occur in real world headphones or ears.

I doubt it
The HD800 has a unique design with the angled drivers that no EQ can mimic

 

[Zensō]

I’ve owned an embarrassingly large number of headphones up and down the price range. I wouldn’t say the HD800(S) is the ”headphone against which all others should be measured”, in fact, I think they’re somewhat of an acquired taste. That said, if you prioritize what they uniquely have to offer (exaggerated soundstage and extreme comfort) there isn’t a less expensive headphone that compares, IMO.

 

[maverickronin]

I doubt it
The HD800 has a unique design with the angled drivers that no EQ can mimic

You could copy the soundstage, but you'd need personalized on-your-own-head measurements of both the HD800 and the other headphone and then convolve them Impulcifer or Smyth Realiser style.

But you're right that simple PEQ won't do it.

 

[Loomynarty]

No, all soundstage characteristics including imaging are result of frequency response at the eardrum. With just EQ, you can give any headphone any soundstage including making HD800 sound like Etymotic or making Etymotic have soundstage of HD800.

Frequency response and phase response are same thing. You can predict phase response from frequency response and vice versa. You cant change frequency response without changing phase response.

Its like waterfall plots and impulse response, we measure both, talk about both but they are in reallity the same thing. In terms of soundstage, frequency response is all that matters, phase ofcourse follows the FR. Any complex analysis of the physical configuration of the driver and earcup is unnecessary since it all comes down to frequency response.

And, yes, I am aware phase shifting filters and linear phase filters exist, these dont occur in real world headphones or ears.

You're grossly oversimplifying. What I meant is that the matching between the two drivers needs to very good for a headphone to have proper soundstage and imaging. Yes, frequency response is the metric which is used to do this but just saying that frequency response alone is the only thing that determines soundstage and imaging is wrong.

 

[Graph Feppar]

I doubt it
The HD800 has a unique design with the angled drivers that no EQ can mimic

It can. The only thing the driver angle does is modify the frequency gain of your concha and pinna by shifting the resonances. Its like having horn speaker and moving to the side, you will get differnt frequency response that can be fixed with EQ so it sounds like its aimed directly at you.

I understand your and other members skepticism towards my claim. Here is the thing, this is all possible in theory, we dont live in theory, we live in reality and in reality unless you stick tiny microphone all the way to your eardum and measure with real HD800 or 3D scan your ear and run acoustic simulation with perfect model of HD800, then you will never get EQ to match real HD800.

Even if you had money, if you go the first route you need real HD800 so you wont save any money unless you borrow it and second variant is practically impossible since there is no software simulation of HD800 and even if there was, the cost of workstation PC and 3D scanner would be so high that person who could afford it could simply buy HD800.

 

[Takanaka]

I heard really good things about the Audio Technica R70x, well balanced sound, wide as well.

 

[Graph Feppar]

You're grossly oversimplifying. What I meant is that the matching between the two drivers needs to very good for a headphone to have proper soundstage and imaging. Yes, frequency response is the metric which is used to do this but just saying that frequency response alone is the only thing that determines soundstage and imaging is wrong.

Any driver mismatch can be easily fixed with independent L R channel EQ. Channel matching is meme, the spectrum shifts so much with small movements on head and tiny air leaks in pads that its not problem most of the time. In closed headphones these shifts are much more pronounced compared to open backs. Unless its some mystery meat driver from unknown factory of cheap Chinese made flavor of the month bargain planar, its not problem.

 

[Zensō]

It can. The only thing the driver angle does is modify the frequency gain of your concha and pinna by shifting the resonances. Its like having horn speaker and moving to the side, you will get differnt frequency response that can be fixed with EQ so it sounds like its aimed directly at you.

I understand your and other members skepticism towards my claim. Here is the thing, this is all possible in theory, we dont live in theory, we live in reality and in reality unless you stick tiny microphone all the way to your eardum and measure with real HD800 or 3D scan your ear and run acoustic simulation with perfect model of HD800, then you will never get EQ to match real HD800.

Even if you had money, if you go the first route you need real HD800 so you wont save any money unless you borrow it and second variant is practically impossible since there is no software simulation of HD800 and even if there was, the cost of workstation PC and 3D scanner would be so high that person who could afford it could simply buy HD800.

Anecdotally, I can say that the various headphones I own EQ'd to the Harman curve sound very little like the HD800S EQ'd to the same curve (particularly in regards to the spatial qualities we're discussing). These are all based upon Oratory1990's measurements, which are probably about as good as we'll get short of what you're describing above.

 

[Jimbob54]

I heard really good things about the Audio Technica R70x, well balanced sound, wide as well.

And not great for comfort due to the too bloody small pads .

 

[Svperstar]

AKG K7xx series is praised for it soundstage...

True but I found the K7XX very grainy. When one of the drivers went out on mine just I threw them away.

 

[thewas]

Here you can hear binaural recordings of very different headphones EQed to the same in ear drum frequency response, differences are smaller than I would think but I could identify the spacial qualities of HD800S.

 

[MayaTlab]

Here you can hear binaural recordings of very different headphones EQed to the same in ear drum frequency response, differences are smaller than I would think but I could identify the spacial qualities of HD800S.

I'll try to analyse the long-term spectrum after going through listening tests but I'm fairly certain that FR remains a little bit different between the samples. There's also the question of R/L matching perhaps ?
BTW any suggestions for a good long-term spectrum analyser on Mac OS ?

 

[thewas]

I'll try to analyse the long-term spectrum after going through listening tests but I'm fairly certain that FR remains a little bit different between the samples. There's also the question of R/L matching perhaps ?

The video creator comments both the limitations of the frequency response matching and channels imbalance which can also be heard. Some of the heard differences though I think cannot be be explained by just those.

 

[garbulky]

A used HD700 has a lot of similar sound characteristics to the HD800S. Think of it as an HD800S lite. Especially if you use the cheap mod. I have both. The main thing the HD 700 lacks is that unlike an eq'd HD800S, a stock HD700 doesn't go as deep. Not that it doesn't have bass, but it doesn't have the lowest bass.

 

[BoredErica]

How deep do HS800(s) actually go when EQed to a better FR than stock? ...Perhaps that's something we need measurements for...

 

[Redheart]

I have currently LCD3, mdr Z7, hd650, hd800S.

My advice, get the hd650 with a topping amp and be done with it!

The hd650 is an extremely good value.

 

[Loomynarty]

I heard really good things about the Audio Technica R70x, well balanced sound, wide as well.

They lack the high frequency detail to be a HD 800S competitor unfortunately. Source: I use the R70x as my daily driver.

 

[Loomynarty]

True but I found the K7XX very grainy. When one of the drivers went out on mine just I threw them away.

Strange I never found my K7XX to sound grainy even compared to much more expensive headphones. I did however find that the soundstage, although wide, is very 2D and lacks any form of vertical scale. Tuning though was very good for the price.

Mine also had one driver that started cutting out. I fixed it by literally opening the left earcup and moving the wires around, closed it up and it worked fine afterwards lol.

 

[Loomynarty]

Here you can hear binaural recordings of very different headphones EQed to the same in ear drum frequency response, differences are smaller than I would think but I could identify the spacial qualities of HD800S.

This is exactly why I said there's more to soundstage and imaging than just FR.