Are there any speakers that output sound essentially indistinguishable from a live performance?

[Robin L]

I don’t understand this business about mic limiting dynamic range (if I have this right). Some certainly do not and are made for exactly these applications.

Rock bands use close-mic’d drums, electric bass and guitar, horns, etc. They have no problem with the dynamic range and the “stamp” they put on the sound is often by design because the instrument either doesn’t need it or sounds better when mixed with other amplified instruments, like bass roll off or a little presence boost. Some can be quite flat though, depends on the application.

One of the most popular studio and live mics is the Shure SM57. I found this, and having recorded with this mic regularly, I believe it!

“On a practical level, there is virtually no limit to the high sound pressure levels (SPL) the SM57 can handle. That’s right, no sound is too loud for it. The first frequency range to distort is around 100Hz at 150dB SPL. That is louder than a jet engine. At 20kHz, the SM57 can theoretically handle around 190dB SPL. Don’t try this or you’ll become deaf!”
https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/...hures-sm57-became-the-worlds-go-to-microphone

We are drifting from the OP. The original question:
Are there any speakers that output sound essentially indistinguishable from a live performance?

The original question is about speakers, a kind of transducer. My point is that the initial bottleneck is in the other critical transducer, the microphone. This thread drifted off to concerns with performance of microphones at the loud end of the dynamic scale. There is no functional use for a microphone that is capable of working with a 190db signal, that kind of level is not used in music for the obvious reason that it would instantly cause deafness, that is a red herring. I know from Shure SM57/58 microphones, have used them a lot. Don't believe the hype. Yes, it can take a very loud signal, but SM57/58s also have a very easily noticed sound signature, one that does not sound like live, unamplified music. The issue, for me, is the coloration of transducers, all transducers, all microphones, all speakers. What goes in is never equal to what goes out. The dynamic range is not how loud can it go, speakers and microphones can go pretty loud. The issues are those of coloration [all transducers have resonances, they cannot be entirely designed out] and dynamic range, including self noise, which would also include the self-noise of the microphone preamp and recorder. What happens at the bottom of the dynamic scale is just as important as the upper limits of the dynamic range. DPA microphones do have a wide dynamic range, but they are not completely transparent. Those Shure dynamic microphones are not even close to transparent. For some, as they are used to the sound of a "Live" performance via amplification, the point may be moot. But the gold standard is the "absolute sound", unamplified music. Transducers will always color sound, there are no recordings, microphones or speakers that are indistinguishable from a live performance of unamplified, acoustic music. And [one more time] most recordings try to get as far away from the sound of "reality" as possible.

 

[Scytales]

You may want to read this (although it's in french)
https://www.forumcabasse.org/wiki/L'âme_de_Cabasse_:_la_Live_Music#:~:text=Présentation de la Live Music,-Historique&text=La Live Music, encore appelée,sur place par des enceintes.

Cabasse has been using and promoting direct comparison between live and reproduced music as a development and demonstration method for years.

Hello.

First, let me introduce myself as the author of the article you above mentioned.

I wish to thank you for having pointed out the experimental methodology that Georges Cabasse has used since its inception in 1957 in order to asses the faithfulness of the entire chain of recording and reproduction to the original sound.

Unfortunately, after Georges Cabasse and his right-hand man, François Bellec, both retired in the nineties, Cabasse (the company) has ceased to practice this kind of experiment.

 

[Deleted member 24508]

Taking a leaf from the 'his masters voice' picture some years, I tried an experiment. The dog next door barks, my dog immediately responds, every time. However if I record the dog next door barking and play it through my really quite expensive hifi and with a variety of speakers my dog shows nil interest, ever? Very unscientific perhaps by some accounts but still a demonstration, of something!

 

[antennaguru]

We regularly sit in the center orchestra seats in the row just in front of the mixing board of a small old-town theatre (450 seats total including balcony) with great acoustics, and we often see/hear live music there - typically 10 to 20 times per year. I look over my shoulder and see different mixing "engineers" at the mixing board right behind me all of the time. We are literally sitting at the apex of an equilateral triangle with the line array speakers hanging on each side of the stage (the house system).

I hate to say this but the sound is always better sitting in front of a really good quality stereo system with multiple subwoofers. I don't regularly spend money going to live performances for better sound, I go for the experience of each performance! BTW, they are now back up to 100% occupancy following COVID, so there was a break for over a year in the ten plus years we have had regular seats there.

First of all, the live events we attend are always amplified music, and over half of the acts are mixed at the mixing board behind me to mono over the stereo line array speakers hanging on either side of the stage, so that all of the sound I hear at my seat simply comes right from the middle of the stage - even though the performers and their individual amplifiers are distributed rather evenly across the stage from left to right in front of me. Normally there is a feed off of each of the musician's individual amps, typically in the form of another microphone hanging in front of each amplifier and wired to mixing board. Occasionally a really good engineer at the mixing board puts the musicians towards the left side of the stage more onto the left side line arrays than the right, and puts the musicians towards the right side of the stage more onto the right side line arrays than the left. Those better mixed "stereo" performances come closer to what a really good quality stereo system sounds like than the mono mixes.

As far as dynamics go, we sit well enough back that a really good quality stereo system playing a really good recording has no trouble reproducing the same level of dynamics. The vastly improved imaging with a really good stereo system/recording helps to make up for the lack of visual clues enjoyed at a live performance. One other thing that's worse at a live performance is the people around you talking, hooting, and the absolute worst is when people in front of you stand up during the performance.

Even though listening over a really good stereo system produces a better sound experience overall, there is something very special with being there live! We have a half dozen performances scheduled/purchased over the rest of this year, and are hopeful that COVID is not coming back in another wave.

 

[Taddpole]

Taking a leaf from the 'his masters voice' picture some years, I tried an experiment. The dog next door barks, my dog immediately responds, every time. However if I record the dog next door barking and play it through my really quite expensive hifi and with a variety of speakers my dog shows nil interest, ever? Very unscientific perhaps by some accounts but still a demonstration, of something!

Demonstrates that you'd need to play it next door?

Or more reasonably that they have a different hearing range to us and not the one we record and playback.

 

[mononoaware]

has anyone heard or know of speakers that can output sound that is basically indistinguishable from a live performance if you say walked into the room blindfolded and were asked to decide the sound was coming from speakers or from a live performer?

No. But a lot of Klipsch Heritage Series customers seem to think so, maybe you will be happy with one of them.

 

[Snarfie]

For what I could hear regarding speakers brands Vandersteen speaker if you placed them correctly. The imaging and detail is sometimes breath taking If the recording alouds it. Lots of professional musicians like them Like Paul Wells https://www.stereophile.com/content/musicians-audophiles-paul-wells

 

[antennaguru]

Demonstrates that you'd need to play it next door?

Or more reasonably that they have a different hearing range to us and not the one we record and playback.

Exactly! Dog hearing is excellent at localizing sound. Our German Shepherd Dog has big ears that pivot like radar dishes, independent of each other. Their excellent sound localization capability let's them know between real and recorded, as the sound is coming from two different locations.

What is interestjng is when a pet wanders into your listening room while you're listening to a good recording, and a performer in the middle of the sound stage starts whacking a wooden percussion istrument and the pet looks right at that spot between the speakers even though there is nothing there except the stereo image. That really shows what holographic imaging is all about.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Even though listening over a really good stereo system produces a better sound experience overall, there is something very special with being there live!

Going beyond the 2 channels of conventional stereo will get you closer.

 

[Gregss]

Going beyond the 2 channels of conventional stereo will get you closer.

While I love in person performances, majority of the time the set up of the room (bar or the restaurant room or whatever) being used is far less than ideal. Add that to seating that is rarely in the sweat spot for majority of the instruments, noisy people and less than ideal separation between the various microphones, I often prefer to hear at least some groups on the stereo at home. Much better clarity quite often. IMHO.

Just being live doesn't make it a great performance. FWIW

 

[Wes]

well... short answer, no -- given the tweaking, compression, limiting, and sweetening that virtually all recorded music is subjected to (even "serious" music, which is sometimes generically, but - of course - inaccurately, called "classical" music).

That said, there is (was) this...

View attachment 70848
source: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/...4/original_models_brochures/ar_brochure_1970/

AR famously conducted live vs. reproduced music demos that were (ostensibly) difficult to impossible to distinguish.
Probably an excellent can of worms in the context of this website and the OP's question!

Here's one 'modern' discussion, chosen more or less at random (i.e., high on the google list of results):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82842.0

Note: This shows that real people were having problems with "golden ears" as far back as the 1970s.

 

[Wes]

When performing the 1812, were live cannons ever used?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Just being live doesn't make it a great performance. FWIW

Agreed. Going beyond the 2 channels of conventional stereo will get you closer to it anyway (bar or the restaurant room or whatever). I prefer whatever.

 

[antennaguru]

Agreed. Going beyond the 2 channels of conventional stereo will get you closer to it anyway (bar or the restaurant room or whatever). I prefer whatever.

I don't agree because I see/hear live music all of the time and it's always in front of me on a stage. The only "immersive" part around me is noisy people disturbing my experience. I used to have a 5.1 setup for 10 years in one room and a really good stereo system in another room with multiple subwoofers. The music always sounded much better on the stereo setup - and for that matter more like what I go to live. Last time we re-did the 5.1 setup we just put in a soundbar under the flatscreen, and a subwoofer (5.1 > 2.1) and we like it better for watching movies, etc. What totally aggravates me is that many of my high rez discs make me do a menu choice to hear 2 Channel Stereo tracks, so I need to have a little monitor in the stereo room to make the right choice. It's glow annoys me so I'm always turning it on and off, unless I am making menu selections.

I like a really good 2 channel system!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I don't agree because I see/hear live music all of the time and it's always in front of me on a stage.

You know that's one of the most popular canards about multichannel, don't you?

The only "immersive" part around me is noisy people disturbing my experience.

I am sympathetic and, I think, understanding but that is not my experience. I guess we frequent different spaces/events.

 

[jhwalker]

I was once on stage with an international opera star rehearsing in a small (c. 200 seat) auditorium and it was…uncomfortable is the best way I can describe it. I could feel the pressure in my ears. In my listening room I can’t imagine what it would be like. Intolerable probably. I would not want to have speakers that would re-create the sound like he was really there in my room.

Edit: the quality was glorious, just so loud! I am happy to listen to his recordings.

I sing similar repertoire to Estes and always decline when people ask me to sing because operatic production really doesn't lend itself to living rooms

Jon Vickers once said he did the same, because when he sang in a small room it was more akin to an explosion than to anything recognizable as singing LOL.

 

[audio2design]

I sing similar repertoire to Estes and always decline when people ask me to sing because operatic production really doesn't lend itself to living rooms

Jon Vickers once said he did the same, because when he sang in a small room it was more akin to an explosion than to anything recognizable as singing LOL.

More likely the acoustics in that small theater. I expect it was rather lively?

 

[Inner Space]

When performing the 1812, were live cannons ever used?

Yes - Israel's 30th anniversary celebrations in 1978 ended with the 1812, featuring a real howitzer from the IDF.

 

[mhardy6647]

When performing the 1812, were live cannons ever used?

Yes, multiple times over the decades for recordings. There's a Mercury Living Presence (Dorati, IIRC... there's a copy here... someplace) and the infamous Telarc Digital recording. Others, too, of vastly variable quality.

Quite a few years back now, we saw a 4th of July fireworks 'show' at the old Ft. Devens in Harvard, MA -- the last one before that part of Devens was decomissioned (or whatever they call it) -- that featured 1812 and live artillery.

 

[dasdoing]

We regularly sit in the center orchestra seats in the row just in front of the mixing board of a small old-town theatre (450 seats total including balcony) with great acoustics, and we often see/hear live music there - typically 10 to 20 times per year. I look over my shoulder and see different mixing "engineers" at the mixing board right behind me all of the time. We are literally sitting at the apex of an equilateral triangle with the line array speakers hanging on each side of the stage (the house system).

I hate to say this but the sound is always better sitting in front of a really good quality stereo system with multiple subwoofers. I don't regularly spend money going to live performances for better sound, I go for the experience of each performance! BTW, they are now back up to 100% occupancy following COVID, so there was a break for over a year in the ten plus years we have had regular seats there.

First of all, the live events we attend are always amplified music, and over half of the acts are mixed at the mixing board behind me to mono over the stereo line array speakers hanging on either side of the stage, so that all of the sound I hear at my seat simply comes right from the middle of the stage - even though the performers and their individual amplifiers are distributed rather evenly across the stage from left to right in front of me. Normally there is a feed off of each of the musician's individual amps, typically in the form of another microphone hanging in front of each amplifier and wired to mixing board. Occasionally a really good engineer at the mixing board puts the musicians towards the left side of the stage more onto the left side line arrays than the right, and puts the musicians towards the right side of the stage more onto the right side line arrays than the left. Those better mixed "stereo" performances come closer to what a really good quality stereo system sounds like than the mono mixes.

As far as dynamics go, we sit well enough back that a really good quality stereo system playing a really good recording has no trouble reproducing the same level of dynamics. The vastly improved imaging with a really good stereo system/recording helps to make up for the lack of visual clues enjoyed at a live performance. One other thing that's worse at a live performance is the people around you talking, hooting, and the absolute worst is when people in front of you stand up during the performance.

Even though listening over a really good stereo system produces a better sound experience overall, there is something very special with being there live! We have a half dozen performances scheduled/purchased over the rest of this year, and are hopeful that COVID is not coming back in another wave.

your seats are at the back of the hall?