Are there any "lossless" extension cables for IEMs and Headphones?

[Fraxo]

So for my workspace, an extension (Female to Male) cable to plug my IEMs and Headphones would be an amazing convenience improvement.
But - I'd rather not risk any audio signal degradation, unless it's extremely(!) minimal.
Ik length could be an issue so I won't go over 1.5-2 meters.

• Is there a way to estimate degradation according to cable specs?
• Any personal recommendation on what to purchase?
  
  Thanks!

 

[RayDunzl]

Cheap stuff may have poor quality connectors.

Cheapest stuff may have low grade wire.

Other than that I wouldn't worry about it.

I use one of these for headphones across the room, about 20 feet of wire including the cable on the phones:

https://www.amazon.com/PHX14-10-TRSF-Headphone-Extension-Cable/dp/B017Y4NA1U/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2C4FNTZOS55J5&keywords=pig+hog+10+foot+headphone+extension&qid=1663888465&s=electronics&sprefix=pig+hog+10+foot+headphone+extension%2Celectronics%2C88&sr=1-4

It looks fat and clunky but it is soft and flexible, and has tight connectors.

 

[Fraxo]

@RayDunzl Really??
Oh wow, this cable is extremely cheap (price-wise) as well... I'm surprised there isn't more to it

Is there a recommendation for 3.5mm extender?

 

[RayDunzl]

Is there a recommendation for 3.5mm extender?

I'm not "recommending", just telling what I worried about and what I bought and satisfied with.

There's one with 3.5mm

 

[Fraxo]

I'm not "recommending", just telling what I worried about and what I bought and satisfied with.

I see... Well I might just give it a go, thanks a lot for your input!

 

[DJNX]

I use this with sensitive IEMs.
Even did AB tests with and without the extension and couldn't tell the difference.

Amazon.com: UGREEN 3.5mm Male to Female Extension Stereo Audio Extension Cable Adapter Gold Plated Compatible for iPhone, iPad, Smartphones, Tablets, Media Players, Blue, Nylon-Braided (3FT) : Electronics

Buy UGREEN 3.5mm Male to Female Extension Stereo Audio Extension Cable Adapter Gold Plated Compatible for iPhone, iPad, Smartphones, Tablets, Media Players, Blue, Nylon-Braided (3FT): Extension Cords - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[counterpoint]

Lol I'm just using the 12ft Amazon Basics cable: https://www.amzn.com/B01CNAV1K2

 

[Jimbob54]

Lol I'm just using the 12ft Amazon Basics cable: https://www.amzn.com/B01CNAV1K2

I have the same. Works fine. Ugreen or amazon basics are always the default for me unless I want something chunky. But definitely need light weight for iems, don't want the weight of the cable tugging at the fit in yoir ears

 

[sergeauckland]

I make up my own extensions using either 3 amp three-core mains cable, or balanced screened cable, whatever's around. Thickness and flexibility more important than anything else.
For headphones, losses in the cable are totally negligeable until the cable lengths get to many 10s or hundreds of metres, so pretty much anything will do. I dislike curly cables, as they always get tangled, so a straight cable I find preferable.
Good quality connectors (Neutrik or Switchcraft for example) make life a lot easier.

S.

 

[markanini]

No, but depending of the driver and cable designs it's mostly negligible. I would maybe worry about it with some super low impedance IEMs.

 

[counterpoint]

I have the same. Works fine. Ugreen or amazon basics are always the default for me unless I want something chunky. But definitely need light weight for iems, don't want the weight of the cable tugging at the fit in yoir ears

Ugh! While doing some testing I stumbled upon the fact that there is "considerable" crosstalk on the 10' Amazon Basics cable. The crosstalk is reduced when I bypass the cable and plug the IEMs directly into the ADI-2's IEM output but still present. The 1/4" to 1/8" adapter may also be at fault. The level of crosstalk varies when I rotate the 3.5mm plug. This is very disappointing and will not do. I think its normal for a small out of crosstalk but this amount seems abnormal.

Will making my own cable out of star quad and neutrik connectors help? Or is this normal for all cables of this type?

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

If the crosstalk is still present without the Amazon cable extension, I'd try to figure that out and fix it first.

 

[counterpoint]

It's due to the earbuds themselves (Panasonic RP-HJE125) since its there when I plug them directly into the DAC. It's there on my other pair as well. Its the cheap cabling/construction, not that I was expecting much from ~$10. I don't hear any audible crosstalk on my Sennheiser 560S.

Testing on my IEC 60318-4 coupler, the Amazon Basics 12' extension cable makes it much louder (~26dBFS difference in TotalMix from no extension) so it is clearly at fault. I bought a Mogami GOLD EXT-10 10' extension cable, a Sennheiser 1/4" adapter, and a D'Addario 1/4" adapter and the crosstalk is still there but it is greatly reduced (~8dBFS difference in TotalMix from no extension). That means there is a ~18dBFS difference in TotalMix between the 12' Amazon Basics cable and 10' Mogami GOLD cable. It's a very audible difference. I don't think the 1/4" adapter had anything to do with it. I tried the Sennheiser and D'Addario adapters and they are the same from this basic test. I also seem to get 0.9dBFS (~1dB) more out of the Mogami cable, though the slightly shorter cable length is probably one of the factors in that equation.

The Mogami extension cable is constructed of Mogami W2893 Miniature Quad, a Neutrik NP3X-B 1/4" plug, what appears to be a Switchcraft 131 1/4" female jack (but anodized black), and roughly 1-7/8" of 3/8" heat shrink tubing sleeves on each end (double layered sleeves on the jack end, short first layer slightly past the connect, long second layer 1-3/8" of it past the connector). The internal contacts on the Switchcraft 131 don't appear to be gold plated from what I can tell by shining a light down in there. I would've made my own for half the price but the Switchcraft 131 is only available in silver and I'm OCD like that. You could cover it with 3/4" black heat shrink tubing or maybe tennis racket grip tape. If you want to do 1/8" / 3.5mm termination I suggest for the male plug the Switchcraft 35HDBAU (0.290" opening) or Switchcraft 35HDNAU (0.290" opening) with 3/8" heat shrink tubing sleeve or Switchcraft 35HDNAUS (0.175" opening) with no sleeving and for the female jack the Switchcraft 35LJNS (0.175" opening) with no sleeving.

It is a heavier cable to deal with, though, and the jack is a hefty slug when you add a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter for earbuds/IEMs. That is something to take into consideration.

I think it sounds better from my limited time with it. Darker/warmer maybe? Is that due to less crosstalk? I don't know. I need more time.

Can we do better than that? What about quantifiably? Is there a measurable difference? I'm new to this so please take this with a grain of salt...

To measure the crosstalk, I took a frequency response measurement (through each cable) of the left earbud with output set to only R making sure I calibrated both cables to the same SPL reading of 94dB @ 1KHz in REW.

As you can see, there is a big difference. The measurement of the Mogami cable looks noisier because it was much closer to the noise floor.

Next, I took a normal frequency response measurement through each cable with output set to L+R making sure I calibrated both cables to the same SPL reading of 94dB @ 1KHz in REW.

There is no discernible difference. You would have to zoom in pretty far to see that the Mogami has a hair more bass response (~0.015dB) and a hair less treble response (~0.01dB). Clearly, this is not audible to the human ear. I don't know if more crosstalk is supposed to translate to a noticeably different frequency response measurement but maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Is the Mogami GOLD EXT worth the price? I think it's definitely worth making your own at least if your current extension cable is crap and you already have a wire stripper, soldering iron, quality solder (not cheap), and a heat gun. If you don't already have the tools I guess the premade Mogami cable is worth it if you have noticeable crosstalk on your current cable. If you do want to make your own I would buy at least a foot longer than the desired length in case they cut you short or you mess up and have to redo a termination.

 

[Jimbob54]

It's due to the earbuds themselves (Panasonic RP-HJE125) since its there when I plug them directly into the DAC. It's there on my other pair as well. Its the cheap cabling/construction, not that I was expecting much from ~$10. I don't hear any audible crosstalk on my Sennheiser 560S.

Testing on my IEC 60318-4 coupler, the Amazon Basics 12' extension cable makes it much louder (~26dBFS difference in TotalMix from no extension) so it is clearly at fault. I bought a Mogami GOLD EXT-10 10' extension cable, a Sennheiser 1/4" adapter, and a D'Addario 1/4" adapter and the crosstalk is still there but it is greatly reduced (~8dBFS difference in TotalMix from no extension). That means there is a ~18dBFS difference in TotalMix between the 12' Amazon Basics cable and 10' Mogami GOLD cable. It's a very audible difference. I don't think the 1/4" adapter had anything to do with it. I tried the Sennheiser and D'Addario adapters and they are the same from this basic test. I also seem to get 0.9dBFS (~1dB) more out of the Mogami cable, though the slightly shorter cable length is probably one of the factors in that equation.

The Mogami extension cable is constructed of Mogami W2893 Miniature Quad, a Neutrik NP3X-B 1/4" plug, what appears to be a Switchcraft 131 1/4" female jack (but anodized black), and roughly 1-7/8" of 3/8" heat shrink tubing sleeves on each end (double layered sleeves on the jack end, short first layer slightly past the connect, long second layer 1-3/8" of it past the connector). The internal contacts on the Switchcraft 131 don't appear to be gold plated from what I can tell by shining a light down in there. I would've made my own for half the price but the Switchcraft 131 is only available in silver and I'm OCD like that. You could cover it with 3/4" black heat shrink tubing or maybe tennis racket grip tape. If you want to do 1/8" / 3.5mm termination I suggest for the male plug the Switchcraft 35HDBAU (0.290" opening) or Switchcraft 35HDNAU (0.290" opening) with 3/8" heat shrink tubing sleeve or Switchcraft 35HDNAUS (0.175" opening) with no sleeving and for the female jack the Switchcraft 35LJNS (0.175" opening) with no sleeving.

It is a heavier cable to deal with, though, and the jack is a hefty slug when you add a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter for earbuds/IEMs. That is something to take into consideration.

I think it sounds better from my limited time with it. Darker/warmer maybe? Is that due to less crosstalk? I don't know. I need more time.

Can we do better than that? What about quantifiably? Is there a measurable difference? I'm new to this so please take this with a grain of salt...

To measure the crosstalk, I took a frequency response measurement (through each cable) of the left earbud with output set to only R making sure I calibrated both cables to the same SPL reading of 94dB @ 1KHz in REW.

View attachment 241076

As you can see, there is a big difference. The measurement of the Mogami cable looks noisier because it was much closer to the noise floor.

Next, I took a normal frequency response measurement through each cable with output set to L+R making sure I calibrated both cables to the same SPL reading of 94dB @ 1KHz in REW.

View attachment 241077

There is no discernible difference. You would have to zoom in pretty far to see that the Mogami has a hair more bass response (~0.015dB) and a hair less treble response (~0.01dB). Clearly, this is not audible to the human ear. I don't know if more crosstalk is supposed to translate to a noticeably different frequency response measurement but maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Is the Mogami GOLD EXT worth the price? I think it's definitely worth making your own at least if your current extension cable is crap and you already have a wire stripper, soldering iron, quality solder (not cheap), and a heat gun. If you don't already have the tools I guess the premade Mogami cable is worth it if you have noticeable crosstalk on your current cable. If you do want to make your own I would buy at least a foot longer than the desired length in case they cut you short or you mess up and have to redo a termination.

I know nothing, but is your amazon vs mogami graph really saying when you play right only @94 dB SPL you are getting something like 80dB in left channel using the Amazon cable? Thats bonkers. At that level measurement is surely irrelevant- something is broken.

Im going to dig out my amazon 3.5mm extension and do some quick testing by ear.

EDIT- what is the measurement if you just plug the IEM straight into amp- no cable? SHould be similar to mogami measurement one would hope

 

[counterpoint]

I know nothing, but is your amazon vs mogami graph really saying when you play right only @94 dB SPL you are getting something like 80dB in left channel using the Amazon cable? Thats bonkers. At that level measurement is surely irrelevant- something is broken.

Im going to dig out my amazon 3.5mm extension and do some quick testing by ear.

EDIT- what is the measurement if you just plug the IEM straight into amp- no cable? SHould be similar to mogami measurement one would hope

Yes, I will do more testing tonight and try some older IEMs if I can find them. I don't have many pairs. I just stuck to the Panasonics with EQ.

 

[counterpoint]

I found some discussion elsewhere on this topic so I'm not the only one to stumble upon this. Check it out below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/6uj2rw
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/headphone-extension-cable-question.1135242/#post-29010982

I went rummaging through my house and found some more extension cables to test; some new, most old. I found an old 6' Amazon Basics, new 12' Amazon Basics, new 6' Amazon Basics, old 12' Monoprice Designed for Mobile, old 20' RadioShack, and an old 10' Hosa / Livewire. I know I've bought KabelDirekt cables before but I probably used them for something and can't find any around. I doubt they would measure much different.

I used the same Earfonia SPL calibration for my purposes but my overall setup is a bit different.

I calibrated each cable to the same SPL reading of 94dB @ 1KHz in REW.

No Extension -27.4
12' Amazon Basics Old -26.2
6' Amazon Basics Old -26.7
12' Amazon Basics New -26.3
6' Amazon Basics New -26.8
12' Monoprice Old -26.8
20' RadioShack Old -26.4
10' Hosa / Livewire Old -27.0
10' Mogami GOLD New -27.3

No extension cable required the least amount of gain, followed by Mogami, then Hosa.

Then I did a level check on L before each measurement to double check.

I then set the output to R and ran the test.

Obviously, having no extension cable tested the best. The new and old Amazon Basics cables tested basically the same so my 5 year old 12' daily driver is showing its age but not broken. The 6' Amazon Basics cables tested better than the 12' Amazon Basics cables. The 20' RadioShack cable tested basically the same as the 12' Amazon Basics cables. The 12' Monoprice cable did better than 6' Amazon Basics cables. The 10' Hosa / Livewire cable did a little better than the 12' Monoprice cable. The 10' Mogami GOLD cable tested the best out of all the cables; not surprising given the Neglex Quad design and quality and being made in Japan. A balanced cable would probably measure even better but I don't have a headphone amp with a balanced output or balanced headphones/IEMs so whatever. Are there even balanced IEMs? I don't even know.

I did find my old IEMs; Panasonic RP-TCM125, Sony MDR-EX100AP, Sony MDRXB50AP, Sony MDR-XB90EX, and Symphonized NRG. There is audible crosstalk on them as well. I could do measurements later. I don't have anything high-end but would love if anyone who does can tell us if there is crosstalk on theirs.

 

[solderdude]

The lower the impedance of the head/ear-phone and the higher the resistance of the 'common/return' wire (the sleeve of the TRS plug) the worse crosstalk will be.
This, and the higher output voltage level, of a balanced cable is really the only advantage of balanced compared to SE cables but can be an audible one.

Now... if you want to reduce crosstalk for low impedance IEM's you could buy a balanced cable for it (terminating in 2.5mm TRRS for instance) and use a 2.5mm TRRS extension cable. This will separate the 'return wires' all the way up to the 2.5mm TRRS plug. Then plug that into a short 3.5mm TRS (plug) to 2.5mm TRRS (socket) converter cable or remove its 2.5mm TRRS connector and solder a 3.5mm TRS plug onto that extension cord and you won't have to worry about crosstalk.

Basically the amount of crosstalk (not the same as crossfeed) depends on the resistance value of the 'sleeve' connection (plug - wire -socket).
Unless the resistance value is clearly mentioned in the specs (it NEVER is) each cable can have a different 'effect' ranging from audible to not audible.
This also depends on the impedance of the headphone (lower = worse) and because that impedance can vary for different frequencies that crosstalk can also be frequency dependent.

 

[counterpoint]

Upon further reflection, I've been thinking. How important is crosstalk anyway? When you listen through speakers, you don't have the same kind of crosstalk you experience with headphones and IEMs. You don't have a portion of the right channel coming out of the left channel and vice versa, but you effectively experience crosstalk because your left ear is hearing a large portion of the right channel and vice versa, albeit not the exact same. The amplitude and time of arrival differences creates the stereo image, soundstage, etc. If there is no crosstalk on your headphones/IEMs, you won't experience this effect without signal processing (Dolby, DTS, etc). Unless something was made using headphones/IEMs specifically for headphones/IEMs with the intent of that channel separation, is some amount of crosstalk desirable?

 

[maverickronin]

IMO you should be using at least basic crossfeed when listening to stereo mixes with headphones and that will swamp the crosstalk from most any unintentional source such as extension cables.

 

[counterpoint]

Not to go off-topic and derail the thread but there has been much discussion on the subject of crossfeed that I've been unaware of until now and just always assumed that any kind of crossfeed is an audiophile blasphemy to being true to the original source. Turns out there is bad crossfeed and much better crossfeed and its not the same as crosstalk.

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/crossfeed/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/crossfeed-for-headphones.12492/
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/26hwxb https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/fifkmo https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/penngs https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/gawnin https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/t381l7 https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/bxn693 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-is-crossfeed.233288/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headphone_amplifier#Crossfeed_and_other_audio_processing
http://www.naivesoftware.com/software.html
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bauer-stereophonic-to-binaural-dsp.182830/
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.html
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/headphone-users-do-you-use-crossfeed/140175/11
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=112166.0


I did some testing with the crossfeed capability built into the RME ADI-2 DAC FS.

I measured the frequency responses of the left IEM of the Panasonic RP-HJE125, through the 10' Mogami extension cable, through all the different crossfeed settings of the RME ADI-2 DAC FS, calibrated to 1KHz @ 94dBSPL with Crossfeed Off. I did NOT re-calibrate for each crossfeed setting.

The responses of Crossfeed settings 3 and 4 do not deviate until 1 KHz where setting 4 exhibits slightly more response in the upper frequencies.

I then measured the frequency response of the crosstalk + crossfeed of the left IEM of the Panasonic RP-HJE125, through the 10' Mogami extension cable, through all the different crossfeed settings of the RME ADI-2 DAC FS, calibrated to 1KHz @ 94dBSPL with Crossfeed Off. I did NOT re-calibrate for each crossfeed setting.

There is roughly a 4dB attenuation by 1KHz, a 23dB attenuation by 10KHz, and a 30dB attenuation by 20KHz. This is very different from the more linear response of the inherent crosstalk of these IEMs as shown in purple above (with extension cable) and below (no extension cable).

The "correct" amount of crossfeed is very much dependent on the source material and personal preference. When I listen to "If I were a blackbird" by Angela Hicks, what sounds best to me is Crossfeed Setting 1. I do feel like something is lost, though, like slightly less reverb/atmosphere while gaining the feeling that the subjects are directly in front of me instead of in my periphery.

When I listen to "Flamenco Sketches" by Miles Davis, with hard panned instruments, what sounds best to me is Crossfeed Setting 4.

So, I am compelled to say no, that crosstalk is not desirable at all since it does not accurately simulate the effect of listening through speakers. A straight crossfeed is not desirable either since it does not accurately simulate that effect either. What is a better approach is something that takes into account the physics of acoustics like the Bauer Binaural Method or some other kind of quality DSP plugin that also takes HRTF into account. Personally, I would never go so far as to use something like the Smyth Realizer. And the crossfeed effect you get from open back headphones is something else entirely but I won't get into that since I don't use headphones anymore. Luckily, I have an RME ADI-2!