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Are there any decent AVR's out there?

Chrispy

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Todays mid market AVR's (Denon X3700, Onkyo RZ50, etc...) - provide performance on a par with mid market pre-amps...

They leverage huge economies of scale, to bring the price of a very sophisticated piece of kit, down to the level of a traditional stereo integrated amp.

Look at what a decent 100W or 150W Receiver cost in the 1980's or 1990's - Pioneer SX-D7000 receiver, 120W@8ohm retailed for $800 in 1980/81... in todays $ that would be around $3000.... yet we can get them at around half that price... and with 11 channels!!

People need a bit of a reality check. - We get huge levels of performance, along with massive features, for very little $ (relatively speaking)

If people are finding the performance of their system disappointing - they should be looking at a whole bunch of possible reasons - usually the AVR is not the main problem! (the AVR amps matching the speakers may be, the Speakers alone are the most likely weak point, and the room and setup!)

Take an AVR, and make it the preamp in a fully configured audiophile setup, and you will hear it shine.
Let alone the slightly older generation of 2ch gear....whatever their "position" in the market was. High end can be severely disappointing otoh.
 

GXAlan

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If you calculate SINAD for highly regarded Audiophile amps of the 80's - eg: Quad 606, SN=105db, THD= 0.01% - SINAD calculates as: 80

By the measures of the SINAD gazers, this highly regarded, highly reputed amplifier, is a poor performer!

Or lets look at the legendary Nakamichi Stasis PA5 amp - THD at rated power = 0.1% SN=120db... so noise is not an issue! - but the THD amounts to SINAD = 60 - so on the SINAD gazer chart - this is in the Junk category!!!

Or how about a legendary Krell FPB200 - it has THD ratings at 1kHz and 20KHz, and does worse at 20kHz - lets be positive and use the better rating... THD= 0.02% or SINAD = 74

One thing we don’t know is the truth in advertising. The McIntosh MC462 is only advertised as a Total Harmonic Distortion of 0.0050%. But the actual performance is 0.0005%.

Of course if you add a factor of 10, it really does show that electronics have helped.

That said, I did send in a restored SA600 where the intent was to provide as close to original performance as possible rather than an enhancement. It might hit SINAD 70.
 

Chrispy

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One thing we don’t know is the truth in advertising. The McIntosh MC462 is only advertised as a Total Harmonic Distortion of 0.0050%. But the actual performance is 0.0005%.

Of course if you add a factor of 10, it really does show that electronics have helped.

That said, I did send in a restored SA600 where the intent was to provide as close to original performance as possible rather than an enhancement. It might hit SINAD 70.
Then again slight differences in spec don't relate to audibility.
 

dlaloum

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One thing we don’t know is the truth in advertising. The McIntosh MC462 is only advertised as a Total Harmonic Distortion of 0.0050%. But the actual performance is 0.0005%.

Of course if you add a factor of 10, it really does show that electronics have helped.

That said, I did send in a restored SA600 where the intent was to provide as close to original performance as possible rather than an enhancement. It might hit SINAD 70.
The other thing to keep in mind too - is sometimes the specs are by engineers - in which case they record the worst case, given the variation in production... - and typical examples should perform better, with exceptional examples being much better...
At other times the specs are by marketing - in which case it is hard to tell what the link is to engineering - although usually there is some sort of link (more along the line of "what test can we use that gives us the highest/lowest figure?")
 

Chrispy

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Specs by idiotic audiophools or engineers...I tend to take the engineers spec. Audiophools are just generally ridiculous.
 

peng

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One thing we don’t know is the truth in advertising. The McIntosh MC462 is only advertised as a Total Harmonic Distortion of 0.0050%. But the actual performance is 0.0005%.

Of course if you add a factor of 10, it really does show that electronics have helped.

That said, I did send in a restored SA600 where the intent was to provide as close to original performance as possible rather than an enhancement. It might hit SINAD 70.

As mentioned by others, "engineers", or McIntosh's marketing might have based the 0.005% on different measurement conditions than the "actual performance" 0.0005%" you quoted, any link to that measurement so we can see the conditions under which it was measured?
 

Vacceo

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I'll take a contrarian view. I've liked a long line of Denons, particularly an AVR-1612 which I felt sounded like nothing at all. More recently for what $6-7k more we "upgraded" from an AVR-X3600H which sounded great to an Anthem AVM70 + ATI525NC. Still sounds great, a bit different,* but definitely not superior.

There's also the point that without an AVR, room correction and proper bass management are often skipped due to non-availability in affordable equipment. Is 120 dB SINAD with lumps and bumps in the response, and no highpass filter on small satellites which then strain and distort better than 100 dB SINAD with smoother bass and less satelitte speaker excursion.

*Is it the Anthem? The ATI? ARC vs. Audyssey XT32? Combination? Place your bets here ladies and gentlemen.
That right there is an interesting point of comparison. Electronics-wise both systems are equally clean (or let's assume so), your room is the same and so are the speakers, right?

Then the most drastic change is ARC Genesis vs. Audyssey XT32. What have you found to be different?
 

GXAlan

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As mentioned by others, "engineers", or McIntosh's marketing might have based the 0.005% on different measurement conditions than the "actual performance" 0.0005%" you quoted, any link to that measurement so we can see the conditions under which it was measured?
Yes. McIntosh (like Accuphase) will “guarantee” that level of performance. McIntosh marketing used to be 1/4 watt to rated power, 20 Hz to 20 kHz. You are guarantees that for that entire range, it will never be worse that 0.0050%. That was their advertisement standard since the 1960s which is why their marketing ratings never look that special compares to companies reporting it at unspecified conditions.

I was going with the google spreadsheet here.

Was a Stereophile review.
 

peng

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Yes. McIntosh (like Accuphase) will “guarantee” that level of performance. McIntosh marketing used to be 1/4 watt to rated power, 20 Hz to 20 kHz. You are guarantees that for that entire range, it will never be worse that 0.0050%. That was their advertisement standard since the 1960s which is why their marketing ratings never look that special compares to companies reporting it at unspecified conditions.

I was going with the google spreadsheet here.

Was a Stereophile review.

Thank you, I am just making the point that manufacturer's may specified % THD+N under different conditions. So sometimes it may be many times higher or lower than a particular bench test measured number, so it is important to compare the numbers for measurements based on the same or very similar conditions. In this case, the 0.0005% was measured by Stereophile using a 1 kHz signal under a specific load condition whereas McIntosh's specified 0.005% was for what they considered the worse condition in order to get the "maximum" THD+N, and I am sure they measured it too, so the higher number was also "actual" performance, just under a different chosen condition. The Stereophile review also showed approx 0.005% (factor of 10 right there) on another graph (different load condition, different frequency).
 

Head_Unit

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That right there is an interesting point of comparison. Electronics-wise both systems are equally clean (or let's assume so), your room is the same and so are the speakers, right?

Then the most drastic change is ARC Genesis vs. Audyssey XT32. What have you found to be different?
Yes, the same room and same speakers: Focal 936/CC900/SR900 plus an SVS SB-2000 Pro filling in below the 40 Hz tuning of the 936 and CC900. We did not spend time using the Denon AVR-X3600H as a preamp to the ATI 525NC because, well, I have a huge stack of surround titles I've never even listened to and wanted to listen to. We went straight to the AVM70 as a preamp. It's hard to say what the difference is, it's like the image height and width and depth seem kinda different. If we consider sound systems as varieties of old school blurry float glass, this before/after is like two different panels of wavy glass.
--> In the future I'll get a good AVR and not worry about it!
At least for me, better things to spend the additional money on.
 

Vacceo

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Yes, the same room and same speakers: Focal 936/CC900/SR900 plus an SVS SB-2000 Pro filling in below the 40 Hz tuning of the 936 and CC900. We did not spend time using the Denon AVR-X3600H as a preamp to the ATI 525NC because, well, I have a huge stack of surround titles I've never even listened to and wanted to listen to. We went straight to the AVM70 as a preamp. It's hard to say what the difference is, it's like the image height and width and depth seem kinda different. If we consider sound systems as varieties of old school blurry float glass, this before/after is like two different panels of wavy glass.
--> In the future I'll get a good AVR and not worry about it!
At least for me, better things to spend the additional money on.
So in essence, you have a hard time calling one better over the other. Even being subjective, it´s nice to read constrasting oppinions.
 

Vacceo

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Honestly i would be happy with any device that takes HDMI 2.1 in and out and has 5.1 output.
If it's for gaming, double check if the particular device is tested with variable famerate techs (gsync, freesync and so on). Denon reported a nice amount of issues with their boards in the past.
 

abdo123

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If it's for gaming, double check if the particular device is tested with variable famerate techs (gsync, freesync and so on). Denon reported a nice amount of issues with their boards in the past.
I will probably just use eARC but these devices don’t really exist anymore and I don’t know if MiniDSP will do the nanoAVR again.
 

Head_Unit

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So in essence, you have a hard time calling one better over the other. Even being subjective, it´s nice to read constrasting oppinions.
Here, you can have even more fun ;)
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/denon-vs-parts-express-round-1.984507/
None of this testing is blind hence not truly scientific. Actually our main takeaway was how not terribly reliable acoustic memory is.

For those those who like A/B switching, yeah I kind of get that, it's unnatural listening. But changing your setup sighted and listening over long periods, we just can't say that's valid either. Sure it's fair to conlude if you like/enjoy something more, or less, than before. However it is not correct to then assume it is due to actual performance changes since the psychological factors can't be removed.

Another viewpoint to consider is that if you like the sound you like the sound, and whether some other equipment *might* be somehow better does not matter if you don't think about it and just enjoy what you have. Hence I simply don't worry about cables too much. Some fine day I'll go to maybe Upscale and ask for a cable demo.
 

Chromatischism

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The only component I know of that offers DIRAC and pre-outs at $1400 is Onkyo/Pioneer Elite/Integra. Throw in 4K/120hz or 8k/60hz over HDMI and it is the current receiver to beat. Nothing else currently on the market offers that combination of features at that price point.
Yeah but unfortunately it doesn't look like it can do 4 height speakers?
 

Vacceo

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Here, you can have even more fun ;)
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/denon-vs-parts-express-round-1.984507/
None of this testing is blind hence not truly scientific. Actually our main takeaway was how not terribly reliable acoustic memory is.

For those those who like A/B switching, yeah I kind of get that, it's unnatural listening. But changing your setup sighted and listening over long periods, we just can't say that's valid either. Sure it's fair to conlude if you like/enjoy something more, or less, than before. However it is not correct to then assume it is due to actual performance changes since the psychological factors can't be removed.

Another viewpoint to consider is that if you like the sound you like the sound, and whether some other equipment *might* be somehow better does not matter if you don't think about it and just enjoy what you have. Hence I simply don't worry about cables too much. Some fine day I'll go to maybe Upscale and ask for a cable demo.
Sorry, but I belive nothing based on cable differences. EQ is a completely different matter as that can definetly be measured and apply quite important changes. Changes not even between different software, but even between rounds of measurements with the same software (Dirac is famous for it changes depending on how you place the microphone).
 
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