Are there any decent AVR's out there?

[dlaloum]

You forgot number #5 - 16 channels
A Denon/Marantz Dirac marriage would be blissful. IMHO, they need to adopt Dirac to remain compettivie. I was a long time D/M owner across multiple genrations for several decades, but I will never go back to Audyssey. I am a big Onkyo fan so if D/M doesn't adpot Dirac its not the end of the world. My last generation 1100z has been flawless in my living room running 8+ hours a day for years. It runs much cooler than my last D/M processors. If the new lines are the same quality with Dirac, then they are one hell of a receiver for the price.

I am eagerly awaiting the much delayed release by Onkyo of their Flagship models with Dirac... the current equivalents of the RZ1100....

If it has some of the features I expect it will, then I will be looking to upgrade.

 

[beagleman]

It seems nearly all the reviews on here don't really have a good word to say about AVR's in general. I think the only one I've seen that comes close to 'ok' is the Denon AVR-X3600.
I can understand manufacturers making cuts in certain areas (cheaper components etc.) to hit price points and this potentially having a knock on effect to sound quality, but it seems the more expensive AVR's from the likes of Arcam etc. still don't get a thumbs up?
So I think my question is why? (for a start) and how do better readings on here translate into improved sound quality from the AVR?

I think you are confusing 2 different things........

Reviews here are often centered around devices having a High SINAD figure. Many budget to normal priced AVRs do not MEASURE great as far as SINAD.


Now here is the other thing.....

Thankfully, as I found in my experience, now relatively recently owning a VERY Budget and also a fairly high priced AVR (Yamahas) this SINAD "Issue", seems honestly more a "Measurements" type of fault, than truly a noticeable audible fault.

In other words, yes they measure mediocre, but doubtful you will even be able to tell......

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I think you are confusing 2 different things........

Reviews here are often centered around devices having a High SINAD figure. Many budget to normal priced AVRs do not MEASURE great as far as SINAD.


Now here is the other thing.....

Thankfully, as I found in my experience, now relatively recently owning a VERY Budget and also a fairly high priced AVR (Yamahas) this SINAD "Issue", seems honestly more a "Measurements" type of fault, than truly a noticeable audible fault.

In other words, yes they measure mediocre, but doubtful you will even be able to tell......

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Well put. I bought my Pioneer VSX LX 503 on USA Amazon for only $ 549.00 back in 2019, while the cost of a Denon, Marantz and Yamaha models with 11.1 channels processing was three or four times more. After, ASR "detonated" all of them. I am fully happy with my cheaper one and I confess I'd be very disapointed if I had bought the others.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Measures are one part of whole information someone must consider when choosing a device. Price and reviews also, together with subjectives like design and desire.

 

[pedrob]

After spending years of with Audyssey I've come to the conclusion the best setting is to turn it off.

 

[beagleman]

Measures are one part of whole information someone must consider when choosing a device. Price and reviews also, together with subjectives like design and desire.

Yeah and the fact that despite fairly mediocre measurements, I was able to procure my 2 receivers at a fraction of their original cost, perhaps made me far more likely to take a chance.

To my astonishment, even on the lowest level model, it sounded for all intents, quite good!

Frequency response, and so on, and amplifier power and all that matter a lot more I guess.
But just sitting here listening, NOTHING seemed sub-standard in any way.

SINAD for sure has a place in measurements, but with my experience of these 2 AVRs, not sure it defines what is good and not good, but maybe more of a tie breaker if all else is equal?

 

[dlaloum]

Yeah and the fact that despite fairly mediocre measurements, I was able to procure my 2 receivers at a fraction of their original cost, perhaps made me far more likely to take a chance.

To my astonishment, even on the lowest level model, it sounded for all intents, quite good!

Frequency response, and so on, and amplifier power and all that matter a lot more I guess.
But just sitting here listening, NOTHING seemed sub-standard in any way.

SINAD for sure has a place in measurements, but with my experience of these 2 AVRs, not sure it defines what is good and not good, but maybe more of a tie breaker if all else is equal?

If you calculate SINAD for highly regarded Audiophile amps of the 80's - eg: Quad 606, SN=105db, THD= 0.01% - SINAD calculates as: 80

By the measures of the SINAD gazers, this highly regarded, highly reputed amplifier, is a poor performer!

Or lets look at the legendary Nakamichi Stasis PA5 amp - THD at rated power = 0.1% SN=120db... so noise is not an issue! - but the THD amounts to SINAD = 60 - so on the SINAD gazer chart - this is in the Junk category!!!

Or how about a legendary Krell FPB200 - it has THD ratings at 1kHz and 20KHz, and does worse at 20kHz - lets be positive and use the better rating... THD= 0.02% or SINAD = 74

Yes we now have amps that can do better - much better - the direct descendant of the Nakamichi Stasis feed forward design, and the Quad Current dumping design (very close relatives!) - is the highly regarded Benchmark AHB2.... its THD is specified as 0.0003 or SINAD = 110 (!!!!)
Amir measured it at an astounding 113db
(Keep in mind all the specifications are at "Rated Power" - whereas Amir is measuring at 5W.... typically amps have lower THD at rated power than at lower power outputs.... so achieving 3db better than spec at 5W is quite a spectacular result!!)

Having said that - we can look at a whole collection of amps, which are universally regarded as top performers from the last 40 years... and we find that the SINAD "Bar" for these amps is (drumroll) ... 60
If the Legendary Nak Stasis could wow the cognoscenti with a SINAD of only 60 - why are we fussing about it !?

Well... a high SINAD is a sign of very good circuit hygiene, it is an indicator that great care was taken not only in the design but in the manufacturing and adjustment... If your shortlist has 2 amps one with a Sinad of 70 and the other with a Sinad of 90 - picking the one with the higher Sinad would make perfect sense.

Looking at current AVR's, a THD of 0.08% = SINAD 62 (Onkyo RZ50, Denon X3700H) - so their amps do better (in SINAD terms) than the classic Nak Stasis!

But there are lots of other things to check out in performance terms...

So yes - a tie breaker, and nothing more.... I would look askance at anything with a SINAD below 60 for sure.... but anything over 70 in the power amp area seems fine, and for the pre-outs I have higher expectations! I expect something in the 90's.

 

[CapMan]

I have a Marantz NR1608 (now superseded by 1711) for movie duty in a small
listening room.

Some positives for me:
- only 7.2 so not too many wasted outputs
- has pre outs for main L and R and 2 subs
- has a trigger out that turns on my amps
- slimline design , easy to fit into a rack!

For somebody like me who needs pre out integration in to a 2 channel system, has a basic Dolby 5.1 requirement for movies and where movies are a secondary thing it’s a great feature set.

 

[dlaloum]

View attachment 221899I have a Marantz NR1608 (now superseded by 1711) for movie duty in a small
listening room.

Some positives for me:
- only 7.2 so not too many wasted outputs
- has pre outs for main L and R and 2 subs
- has a trigger out that turns on my amps
- slimline design , easy to fit into a rack!

For somebody like me who needs pre out integration in to a 2 channel system, has a basic Dolby 5.1 requirement for movies and where movies are a secondary thing it’s a great feature set.

When running 5.1 - is the AVR acting as a pre only , or are you using the Devialet for mains and Marantz for the other speakers?

If found with my AVR that it did not have what it took for the mains, but taking the mains off the AVR, meant it had enough grunt to run the surrounds without trouble....

 

[CapMan]

When running 5.1 - is the AVR acting as a pre only , or are you using the Devialet for mains and Marantz for the other speakers?

If found with my AVR that it did not have what it took for the mains, but taking the mains off the AVR, meant it had enough grunt to run the surrounds without trouble....

Hi - that’s right, I use the AVR pre outs into my Devialet which is configured as pass through for the AVR input.

I listen at 80dB max in my room and everything hangs together . I’m also using higher crossovers (120hz) which will take some load off.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Yeah and the fact that despite fairly mediocre measurements, I was able to procure my 2 receivers at a fraction of their original cost, perhaps made me far more likely to take a chance.

To my astonishment, even on the lowest level model, it sounded for all intents, quite good!

Frequency response, and so on, and amplifier power and all that matter a lot more I guess.
But just sitting here listening, NOTHING seemed sub-standard in any way.

SINAD for sure has a place in measurements, but with my experience of these 2 AVRs, not sure it defines what is good and not good, but maybe more of a tie breaker if all else is equal?

I compared the sound of my receiver Pioneer VSX LX 503 in Pure Direct Mode with the sound of my Sansui AU-X911DG and the second one is better. It does not mean, however, that the Pioneer sound is that bad. And it has an all channels equalizer, that helps you to fit the sound to your preferences. In time: A cheaper Sansui AU-217 or AU 317 are very good and really make difference.

 

[peng]

For a more reasonably comparison of ASR's SINAD as measured by ASR vs Denon's specs, I think we should consider the bandwidth as well, not just the results for the 1 kHz test.

Denon website info for the AVR-X3700H:

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)

105 W

ASR measurements by Amir as shown in the attached graph:

It seems to be about -73 dB, or 0.024% based on the blue curve, or -68 dB, that is 0.04%.

So ASR's measured SINAD appeared to beat Denon's spec. by a few dB, but ASR's were measured with a 4 Ohm load whereas Denon's were obviously for an 8 Ohm load.

Still, 0.08% vs 0.04% (for the X3700H) from lab measurements that were not exactly apples to apples comparison, the differences were surprisingly small.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

For a more reasonably comparison of ASR's SINAD as measured by ASR vs Denon's specs, I think we should consider the bandwidth as well, not just the results for the 1 kHz test.

Denon website info for the AVR-X3700H:

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)

105 W

ASR measurements by Amir as shown in the attached graph:

It seems to be about -73 dB, or 0.024% based on the blue curve, or -68 dB, that is 0.04%.

So ASR's measured SINAD appeared to beat Denon's spec. by a few dB, but ASR's were measured with a 4 Ohm load whereas Denon's were obviously for an 8 Ohm load.

Still, 0.08% vs 0.04% (for the X3700H) from lab measurements that were not exactly apples to apples comparison, the differences were surprisingly small.

I do not know if our ears will note any difference, by the way. I take measures as an indicator of care that the builder took with the project. Not necessarely I will listen differences on the real world. I do not blast the speakers. I listen in a moderate level both music and videos and my room is not "the one". I took the cheaper in 2019, Pioneer VSX LX 503 (now, much more expensive 505). Very satisfied here.

 

[tjcinnamon]

I’m really enjoying my Denon 4700. I’m sure the 3700 would be nearly identical.

I am coming from an NAD with Dirac. So far I like Audyssey better due to Dynamic EQ

Also, I am running in full-pre-out mode which is very nice as well

 

[Chrispy]

More curious why you think there aren't? What do you partiularly perceive as being of better capability (not even considering multich capabilities)?

 

[Head_Unit]

If someone has only stereo wouldn't it make much more sense to buy something like the lyngdorf tdai 1120, nad m10v2 or similar that have hdmi in, streaming (including roon) , room EQ etc?

 

[Head_Unit]

After spending years of with Audyssey I've come to the conclusion the best setting is to turn it off.

Our experience is it helps a lot. But it depends on the setup I suppose. I worked for a huge autosound company which had developed vaguely similar software. Sometimes-like navigation, another dumb programmed machine-it would just get caught out by some kind of circumstances.

 

[Head_Unit]

It seems nearly all the reviews on here don't really have a good word to say about AVR's in general. I think the only one I've seen that comes close to 'ok' is the Denon AVR-X3600.

I'll take a contrarian view. I've liked a long line of Denons, particularly an AVR-1612 which I felt sounded like nothing at all. More recently for what $6-7k more we "upgraded" from an AVR-X3600H which sounded great to an Anthem AVM70 + ATI525NC. Still sounds great, a bit different,* but definitely not superior.

There's also the point that without an AVR, room correction and proper bass management are often skipped due to non-availability in affordable equipment. Is 120 dB SINAD with lumps and bumps in the response, and no highpass filter on small satellites which then strain and distort better than 100 dB SINAD with smoother bass and less satelitte speaker excursion.

*Is it the Anthem? The ATI? ARC vs. Audyssey XT32? Combination? Place your bets here ladies and gentlemen.

 

[dlaloum]

Todays mid market AVR's (Denon X3700, Onkyo RZ50, etc...) - provide performance on a par with mid market pre-amps...

They leverage huge economies of scale, to bring the price of a very sophisticated piece of kit, down to the level of a traditional stereo integrated amp.

Look at what a decent 100W or 150W Receiver cost in the 1980's or 1990's - Pioneer SX-D7000 receiver, 120W@8ohm retailed for $800 in 1980/81... in todays $ that would be around $3000.... yet we can get them at around half that price... and with 11 channels!!

People need a bit of a reality check. - We get huge levels of performance, along with massive features, for very little $ (relatively speaking)

If people are finding the performance of their system disappointing - they should be looking at a whole bunch of possible reasons - usually the AVR is not the main problem! (the AVR amps matching the speakers may be, the Speakers alone are the most likely weak point, and the room and setup!)

Take an AVR, and make it the preamp in a fully configured audiophile setup, and you will hear it shine.