Indeed. The big mainstream companies have large research departments equipped with audio analyzers etc and proper product manufacturing engineers, unlike boutique brands. As a result, mainstream stuff is much much cheaper, and often rather better. It is basically a very unequal fight, so the boutique manufacturers have altered the rules of the game.
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Are there any audiophile electronics companies who have a transparent, honest marketing as a priority?
- Thread starter Blake Klondike
- Start date
It seems to me that manufacturers selling into the Pro market are far more focused on facilities and value for money, and substantially take audio quality as a given. That seems to me as the more honest approach, as transparency has been available quite cheaply for quite some time. By the time I retired, now 15 years ago, all Tender Specifications we were responding to made much of what the product had to do, what had to route to where, what service guarantees were required, but audio specs, as in dBs and kHz were completely absent.
S
invaderzim
Senior Member
I recently saw a thread where someone recommended the JDS Atom headphone amp and the person that started the thread responded with "But my budget is higher than that"
It wasn't that it wasn't a good enough sounding amp or was missing features they needed, but that they wanted to spend more money. I have trouble bending my brain around that one. But that is the way this stuff works now. How impressed other people will be factors into most all purchasing decisions and the boutique manufactures are building 'impressive' components.
I've had this over and over again on other Forums. My 'go-to' manufacturer all things being equal is Behringer, as they make 'good enough' products in the main, but those suggestions have met with derision from those who equate quality with price.
And don't get me started on cable threads, what's wrong with the red/white cables that come free with the equipment?
S.
KSTR
Major Contributor
Typically, those have a weak spiral wires shield which has rather high resistance and low shielding effectiveness. Any shield current other than signal return current will provoke R*i voltage drops along the shield which adds to the signal voltage seen by the receiver. Unless special care is taken, supported by measurements if possible, all the balancing currents bouncing on the RCA cable shields is a bunch of unknowns in a specific setup. There are chances that these "interface errors" can easily dominate a system's perceived "less than optimum sound" and "sensitivity to cables". Much more than conductor type/material, construction, dielectric, etc.
Low shield resistance and full shield covage (high shielding effectiveness against RF ingress) are the really relevant key parameters for good RCA signal cables IMHO. Plus some common-mode impedance at RF, a bunch of clamp-on ferrites does the job.
Sadly, only few makers of hifi cables publish shield resistance and effectiveness numbers.
audioBliss
Active Member
I know of a company and they are very serious about a transparent audio chain. Probably unknown by most but they have a scientific approach.
Holographic Audio.
Holographic Audio.
That reminds me, I should have mentioned Smyth. Their headphone stuff is amazing.
audioBliss
Active Member
@jan.didden and I reviewed an older version of their product. Let's just say that the review was quite positive.
Scott Wurcer was with us during the end of our listening evaluations and ended up buying the review unit.
Amplifier Technologies Inc. - https://www.ati-amp.com/home.php
Frank Brenner (retailer and manufacturer of complete Linkwitz systems) - https://www.magiclx521.com/
Salk Sound - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=82.0
The Realiser A16 has been in development hell though. Not sure how they will recover from it.
Frank Brenner (retailer and manufacturer of complete Linkwitz systems) - https://www.magiclx521.com/
Salk Sound - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=82.0
The Realiser A16 has been in development hell though. Not sure how they will recover from it.
That's a pity. It's a great technology. They should have hired me as their project manager.
Balle Clorin
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Accuphase =Pure engineering and facts, schematics and valid and meaningful specs.
To bad the price doubles when outside Japan. I love my A-36 , power amp, both for the flawless measurements on my unit and the actual sound.
To bad the price doubles when outside Japan. I love my A-36 , power amp, both for the flawless measurements on my unit and the actual sound.
There’s been a lot of good suggestions so far.
Boy, Amir’s testing of some of the “boutique” audiophile type products has been eye opening.
I think there is a bit of a paradoxical effect of the objective instrument testing being done here. Many (most) of the differences in the measurement are not audible. The paradoxical effect is kind of a boomerang placebo effect. Someone owns box A and it turns out to not rank so well here. All of sudden you start questioning the sound, hearing phantom “deficiencies” that were inaudible up until the time you read the test results.
And they likely remain inaudible!
Differences between competently designed amps are inaudible. Differences in DACs are largely inaudible, except perhaps to the most skilled listeners, listening in very high end dedicated studios.
So if your gear has the features you need, fits your room visually, and is reliable then there is little reason to “upgrade.”
Speakers and listening environment remain the biggest trouble spots.
I’m a big fan of Craigslist. There are a ton of bargains to be had if you’re in a bigger city. The main thing is to insist upon doing a basic listening test before buying to make sure it’s working.
If you don’t mind the fussing, it’s relatively easy to sell things too. So you can get speakers at a much lower cost, try them out, and sell if you don’t like.
But my main suggestion is to learn to trust your ears. The recommendations against doing this are related to a specific problem where placebo effects convince people to spend money on things that sound no better.
But ultimately, if you are concerned with putting together a personal system, the main factor is how it sounds. Are you happy with what you have? If not, what don’t you like? Is your gear hooked up and working correctly? Speaker position and room treatment have a huge impact. Can you experiment with this? ( getting a friend to help makes this less painful).
A lot of problems with speakers can be ameliorated with targeted EQ. Even plain tone controls can make a huge benefit.
If you run a computer as a source, it’s relatively easy to run a full parametric EQ. You can use this to tweak your system by ear.
There is also the world of room measurements and filters to compensate.
The main method is iterative. Listen and evaluate what is not sounding good. Make some steps to go in the direction you want, using critical listening to see whether you have improved the sound.
Working at these techniques will rapidly improve your critical listening abilities. As these skills improve, it will become less confusing when you do want to purchase something new.
I think ASR has proved that the audiophile consumer audio industry is largely comprised of companies marketing overpriced gear, often with worse performance than the more reasonablely priced fare. These companies are operated by delusional individuals, at best. It’s ridiculous that people can work for years in the industry and maintain such irrational understanding of how hearing ang audio works.
Boy, Amir’s testing of some of the “boutique” audiophile type products has been eye opening.
I think there is a bit of a paradoxical effect of the objective instrument testing being done here. Many (most) of the differences in the measurement are not audible. The paradoxical effect is kind of a boomerang placebo effect. Someone owns box A and it turns out to not rank so well here. All of sudden you start questioning the sound, hearing phantom “deficiencies” that were inaudible up until the time you read the test results.
And they likely remain inaudible!
Differences between competently designed amps are inaudible. Differences in DACs are largely inaudible, except perhaps to the most skilled listeners, listening in very high end dedicated studios.
So if your gear has the features you need, fits your room visually, and is reliable then there is little reason to “upgrade.”
Speakers and listening environment remain the biggest trouble spots.
I’m a big fan of Craigslist. There are a ton of bargains to be had if you’re in a bigger city. The main thing is to insist upon doing a basic listening test before buying to make sure it’s working.
If you don’t mind the fussing, it’s relatively easy to sell things too. So you can get speakers at a much lower cost, try them out, and sell if you don’t like.
But my main suggestion is to learn to trust your ears. The recommendations against doing this are related to a specific problem where placebo effects convince people to spend money on things that sound no better.
But ultimately, if you are concerned with putting together a personal system, the main factor is how it sounds. Are you happy with what you have? If not, what don’t you like? Is your gear hooked up and working correctly? Speaker position and room treatment have a huge impact. Can you experiment with this? ( getting a friend to help makes this less painful).
A lot of problems with speakers can be ameliorated with targeted EQ. Even plain tone controls can make a huge benefit.
If you run a computer as a source, it’s relatively easy to run a full parametric EQ. You can use this to tweak your system by ear.
There is also the world of room measurements and filters to compensate.
The main method is iterative. Listen and evaluate what is not sounding good. Make some steps to go in the direction you want, using critical listening to see whether you have improved the sound.
Working at these techniques will rapidly improve your critical listening abilities. As these skills improve, it will become less confusing when you do want to purchase something new.
I think ASR has proved that the audiophile consumer audio industry is largely comprised of companies marketing overpriced gear, often with worse performance than the more reasonablely priced fare. These companies are operated by delusional individuals, at best. It’s ridiculous that people can work for years in the industry and maintain such irrational understanding of how hearing ang audio works.
Last edited:
board
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And then the solution is of course to double to price of your equipment and you will be happy
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mjavala
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These guys provide data sheets from various manufacturers and a comparison tool. Pretty transparent if you ask me.
https://www.oscilloscopesource.com/all-oscilloscope-manufacturers/
https://www.oscilloscopesource.com/all-oscilloscope-manufacturers/
board
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I am aware that in days of yore (70s, 80s) Naim amps had to use speaker wires of a certain length or they would blow up, etc. But were the amps you worked with from that period or the newer (perhaps post 2000) period?
Can you, or anyone else, be more specific about exactly what was happening with their amps and how this affected the sound of the amps?
I'm also interested in hearing more about the claim that the Naim amps clip easily, which gives them their signature sound
.They had or perhaps have very high input sensitivity. You turned the volume control a litle bit and you already had a very loud sound. This gave the impression of a very powerful amplifier which was very successful in showrooms. It also meant that the input signal could clip very easily. Some people actually like that sound, because it compresses the signal and gives it a particularly ´lively´ sound.
A gain mismatch also occurred in the days of the first CD players. Their output was red book standard 2 Volt and that would overdrive/clip most aux inputs. This may well be the origin of stories about harsh digital sound. Therefore Quad designed a special CD input board for their pre amplifiers.
A gain mismatch also occurred in the days of the first CD players. Their output was red book standard 2 Volt and that would overdrive/clip most aux inputs. This may well be the origin of stories about harsh digital sound. Therefore Quad designed a special CD input board for their pre amplifiers.
board
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Thanks for your explanation, Willem .
If anybody else have other details about Naim I would be happy to hear more.
I always figured that the Naim sound was primarily due to the load that the speakers would put on the amp, which would change the frequency response, and in the case of Naim this would boost the bass a bit and perhaps also lower the harshness region a tad, which would result in its "lively" sound.
When I've looked at Stereophile's measurements of Naim amps they haven't mentioned clipping at all, since distortion was quite low, but maybe those measurements don't show real-world scenarios...?
.If anybody else have other details about Naim I would be happy to hear more.
I always figured that the Naim sound was primarily due to the load that the speakers would put on the amp, which would change the frequency response, and in the case of Naim this would boost the bass a bit and perhaps also lower the harshness region a tad, which would result in its "lively" sound.
When I've looked at Stereophile's measurements of Naim amps they haven't mentioned clipping at all, since distortion was quite low, but maybe those measurements don't show real-world scenarios...?
MRC01
Major Contributor
I would hope it was a high/low gain switch that changed the amp's gain-feedback loop resistor.
But I'm cynical enough to believe it was just 2 equal resistors making a simple -6 dB pad.
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