Are studio monitors a better buy than passive hifi speakers?

[DSJR]

In the keilidh case and my

I suppose that most of us are placating our spouses and amps built into speakers improves spousal acceptance leading to approval for bigger speakers as less perceived boxes and clutter.

I have settled on Kii BXT speakers in one listening room and ATC SCM100ASLs (current spec) in my second listening room (just about finished). Pretty much everyone who has heard both sets of speakers at my place has preferred the ATCs but I have to admit the the low bass on the Kii BXTs is hard to live without. I have purchased a pair of Perlisten D215S subwoofers to augment the ATCs is there new listening room with hopes of matching the depth and resolution of the Kii BXTs.

I could never go back to passive speakers.

Passive Speakers I have owned:

Yamaha NS1000
Yamaha NS1000M
Naim SBL
Spendor SP9/1
Apogee Duetta
Monitor Audio GR60
Monitor Audio GS60
Monitor Audio PL300
Quad ESL2905
Royd Sovereign
Linn Kan

Active Speakers I have owned

Linn Keilidh
Linn Ninkas
Kef LS50 wireless
Kef LS50 wireless 2
and of course the Kii BXTs and the ATC SCM100ASLs

my experience has been that for every speaker I have heard in active and passive variants the active version was more detailed, had better imaging and lower bass.

My experience with Keilidhs using LK140s and the 5125 using four of the five channels, is that the aktiv version pits the midrange back which we found rather lacking in any passive option we tried

The Ninkas to us, sounded as you say as regards passive vs their active versions


In UK audio-speak, passive speakers with amps built in are 'powered-passive' where an active set whether amps are internal or external, are 'active.' Surely that makes some form of sense?

If the 'WAF' factor allows, the better pro models should make excellent sense as too many domestic passive models are deliberately tuned for a 'nice' sound I feel or increasingly, ssssspiced up for ageing buyer's ears! Mind you, the odd directivity of B&W N series speakers may well work in apartments with walls of glass as I've seen in estate agent promotions of wealthy-people's flats with the speakers flat and tight to a full length and height glass window.

 

[Behrelec 37]

Sometimes when I was building horn DIY speakers, I would place a specially tuned Styrofoam ball in the center of the treble and at a precise distance from it, and I was able to produce high frequencies that you can no longer hear with your ears as music, but rather you hear those frequencies with your feelings (as if they were vibrations in your brain) , a bit like when the low frequencies of a subwoofer go low enough with enough power that you no longer hear the low sounds with your ears, but with your internal organs in your stomach/intestines, vibrating holistically, almost vomiting or dizzying, like the movement of a roller coaster car.

It is no longer listening to music from external sources, with the actual sound being projected into the air, but rather music that is experienced internally. It is difficult to explain if you have no experience of either of these extremes.When listened to through headphones, the same idea is only a shadow of what I mean by high frequencies compared to listening to music through speakers.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Isn't it possible to be subconsciously aware of ultrasonics? I think it makes sense for speakers to be able to reach 45kHz.

lol "[Thing not supported by science] hasn't quite been unequivocally proven to not exist at all, so it's real" is a take, I guess

 

[theREALdotnet]

Here is the hi-res waveform from a modern Grammy nominated recording. See the noiseshaping? You want to "hear" or "feel" that?

No, I don't think anybody wants to hear noise shaping artefacts. What some people would like to hear is the HF content of the original performance.

 

[dagfinn]

No, I don't think anybody wants to hear noise shaping artefacts. What some people would like to hear is the HF content of the original performance.

Reality is, it's not there. Unless you're a bat, you can't even hear it if it was. Where are the complaints over noiseshaping? It's there - many speakers can play it, yet noone complains. Why? You should do a blind test, highpassing everything over 22kHz. Prove you can hear anything.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Sometimes when I was building horn DIY speakers, I would place a specially tuned Styrofoam ball in the center of the treble and at a precise distance from it, and I was able to produce high frequencies that you can no longer hear with your ears as music, but rather you hear those frequencies with your feelings (as if they were vibrations in your brain) , a bit like when the low frequencies of a subwoofer go low enough with enough power that you no longer hear the low sounds with your ears, but with your internal organs in your stomach/intestines, vibrating holistically, almost vomiting or dizzying, like the movement of a roller coaster car.

How can adding a styrofoam ball add additional high frequencies?

 

[Head_Unit]

Read tests on some of the so called pro stuff, it's certainly not all great. And if the speakers are great then the amp inside might not be the best either, some have hissing sound

Mine have a slight hissing sound, but it's not loud enough to be an issue unless on the medium or high gain settings.

But why is there EVER any hiss? Are those amplifiers just crap? Why is anyone designing with crap?

Back to whether monitors are better, what I've observed is that is the space where we finally see large waveguides on tweeters, rare still in the consumer spaces. I'm not sure why as the cost increase is minimal and the advantages large. Offhand the total package price of some of the stuff from say Kali and PreSonus etc seems hard to match passively.

 

[Behrelec 37]

Sigbergaudio.

Here are a few pictures from about 20 years ago, when I was adjusting high frequencies with a horn (plastic food bowl) and various furry mats/soft ball filters in front of the tweeter. I used Styrofoam to control the sound waves and, as a rule, to amplify the frequencies in the midrange downwards and at the highest frequencies also upwards, i.e., different materials to amplify or attenuate different frequencies in layers in a ring shape. The treble became very deep and clear, as if it were vibrating inside my head rather than as if I were listening to external music with my ears. Of course, music must have high frequencies, which are amplified even more, but acoustically with such directional structures.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Sigbergaudio.

Here are a few pictures from about 20 years ago, when I was adjusting high frequencies with a horn (plastic food bowl) and various furry mats/soft ball filters in front of the tweeter. I used Styrofoam to control the sound waves and, as a rule, to amplify the frequencies in the midrange downwards and at the highest frequencies also upwards, i.e., different materials to amplify or attenuate different frequencies in layers in a ring shape. The treble became very deep and clear, as if it were vibrating inside my head rather than as if I were listening to external music with my ears. Of course, music must have high frequencies, which are amplified even more, but acoustically with such directional structures.

What a strange speaker, which speaker is that? Is that an air filter from a car on top of it?

 

[Behrelec 37]

The last two pictures were included only because I still have these parts of the guide in storage. The distances between the layers of the guide were adjusted using micro magnets and micro pins layer by layer. A push gauge was used to ensure that the distance between the two structures was even.

 

[Behrelec 37]

This is my own DIY speaker construction, with Behringer 2031a amplifiers at the back, and its treble and bass elements.
The enclosure is made of MDF boards and is slightly larger than the original Behringer speaker.
The car air filter was used solely as a decoration to cover the ugly rear part of the tweeter from my eyes.
Thin silver wires were also pulled to the treble.
I designed and built this when I was about 30 years old, just because I wanted to sharpen and clarify the midrange and treble areas.

With humor and joy, I modified these different variants over several years. I also used different plastic bowl /plate, but this shape was by far the best.

 

[Chanur]

Here's my living room, zero visible cables to the speakers. They're behind the "fake" wall (which also has 50mm open insulation behind it). Took me a couple of days, but got me both better acoustics and hidden cables.

View attachment 479783

What speakers are those? I like the look.

On another a different note are the Genelec Home Speakers the same tone/sound as their pro monitors? Or do they have a sound style since they are for home use?

Also do many active monitors have a wide sound stage or pinpoint sweet spots? I am thinking about getting some active ones for the simplicity in my bedroom. I don't want a small sweet spot and for some reason I have the impression that the active speakers do that.

Also do active monitors sound harsh or fatiguing since they are not warm?

 

[sigbergaudio]

What speakers are those? I like the look.

Sigberg Audio Saranna.

Also do many active monitors have a wide sound stage or pinpoint sweet spots? I am thinking about getting some active ones for the simplicity in my bedroom. I don't want a small sweet spot and for some reason I have the impression that the active speakers do that.

First of all. wide sound stage (as in the experience of a wide soundstage in the music) and small sweet spot (the music only sounds right in a narrow listening position) aren't necessarily opposites. Second, active speakers don't necessarily have a small sweetspot, and it can also often be adjusted with toe-in (more toe-in often gives a wider sweetspot).

Also do active monitors sound harsh or fatiguing since they are not warm?

Here you are implying a fact that "active monitors are not warm". What do you base that on?

In general, active speakers can have any sound and tonality, that is up to the designer. There is nothing inherent in an active design that restricts this.

 

[Chanur]

Sigberg Audio Saranna.




First of all. wide sound stage (as in the experience of a wide soundstage in the music) and small sweet spot (the music only sounds right in a narrow listening position) aren't necessarily opposites. Second, active speakers don't necessarily have a small sweetspot, and it can also often be adjusted with toe-in (more toe-in often gives a wider sweetspot).



Here you are implying a fact that "active monitors are not warm". What do you base that on?

In general, active speakers can have any sound and tonality, that is up to the designer. There is nothing inherent in an active design that restricts this.

I'm asking more than telling I don't have much active speaker experience. Most active speakers seem to be listed as "Studio Monitors" which I tend to infer(rightfully or wrongly) that they are trying to be neutral. I tend to think of this as neither warm or bright. So I am asking those with experience if this holds true, or they have a tuned sound just like passive speakers?

 

[sigbergaudio]

I'm asking more than telling I don't have much active speaker experience. Most active speakers seem to be listed as "Studio Monitors" which I tend to infer(rightfully or wrongly) that they are trying to be neutral. I tend to think of this as neither warm or bright. So I am asking those with experience if this holds true, or they have a tuned sound just like passive speakers?

Most studio monitors likely try to be relatively neutral, yes. Not all are. And active speakers geared towards the hifi audience are starting to appear as well. My own (Sigberg Audio), Kef, D&D, Kii, Focal, Buchardt Audio, Bang&Olufsen, and a number of others. Some purely make active speakers, some make both active and passive.

A neutral speaker isn't necessarily "wrong" for the hifi audience either. While some studio monitors come across as harsh or fatiguing, a truly neutral speaker isn't either of those things.

 

[Haskil]

Consider JBL. The professional monitors are the M2, LSR708P & LSR705P. All powered systems.

They do make passive models LSR708i & LSR705i. These are quite plainly spelled out as for fixed installations, typically multi-channel/surround installations.

The same technologies are deployed in consumer products like the 43xx series. There are both active and passive models offered. The consumer products are "prettier" to look at, but also much more costly.

LSR708P lists at $1999 each. The comparable JBL 4329P are $4999/pr.

They refer to the 4329P as a "Studio Monitor Powered Loudspeaker" but that's marketing fluff. You won't see them in professional studios. They are marketed to the consumer segment.

It wasn't always this way. Back in the 80s & 90s the 43xx series were serious studio monitors. The first recording studio I ever worked at (Cherry Beach Sound in Toronto) had soffit mounted JBL 4435s driven by Bryston 3Bs. Really good for the time.

I believe active loudspeakers were pioneered by Meridian. Their M1 was introduced in 1977. Curiously, they claim it the "World’s first active loudspeaker for the home."

They're certainly not lacking in audacity at Meridian.

Cabasse had already beaten them to it with several models in its range available in passive and active versions with integrated amplifiers, and some even had servo-controlled woofers...

And the demonstrations by this manufacturer, which produced its own speakers, joinery and electronics, at the Festival du Son de Paris —a major trade show where the Breton company rubbed shoulders with all the European, Japanese, and American hi-fi manufacturers— attracted a huge audience because they did live comparisons of musicians playing and their tape recordings... oh yes, Cabasse did these demonstrations with tape recordings, not LPs... In short, Meridian: tsk, tsk

 

[Ellebob]

On another a different note are the Genelec Home Speakers the same tone/sound as their pro monitors? Or do they have a sound style since they are for home use?

They sound identical. The big difference between the home and pro versions are the home comes with an RCA connection instead of XLR and on the G3 and above they have RCA and XLR. The pro version don't have RCA at all. Also, the home version has a dip switch to turn on or off the LED light. The pro version you have to put a piece of tape over it if you don't want to see it.

 

[Haskil]

If you played normal music loud enough for ultrasonic overtones to be audible, you'd likely die. Either from your flesh melting or your house falling on your head.

I completely agree with you. These stories about harmonics and very high frequencies that abound in the Tales and Legends of Hi-Fi... are utter nonsense and only frighten audiophiles in baby onesies.

For them to exist in an acoustic music recording, they would first have to have been emitted at a sufficient level by the instruments to be captured by the microphone capsules, which very rarely go above 21 kHz, and even for large capsules, they top out around 19 kHz, not to mention that their intrinsic noise level is higher than the pressure level of these harmonics... when they exist at all...

 

[Ktacos]

If you played normal music loud enough for ultrasonic overtones to be audible, you'd likely die. Either from your flesh melting or your house falling on your head.

 

[Haskil]

I own several pairs of passive speakers and one pair of active ones.

Among these are three professional monitors, two of which are passive: the older JBL 4311s and the not-so-young Divatech MC 210s, designed and manufactured in their time by the professional division of JMLab, now Focal. And to see how they performed, I bought a pair of Kali IN V8 2s, which are active...

https://www.divatech.fr/divatech1pg/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/mc-210.pdf

https://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/thumbs2/divatech-mc210-1268037.jpg

I'm setting the JBLs aside because I like them because we're old friends.

But the Divatech MC 210s are large passive monitors equipped with two 10-inch woofers, two 3.5-inch woofers, and a titanium dome tweeter. They've been powered by a Class D amplifier for 20 years now. And I wouldn't part with them for anything, as they combine analytical listening with sound that fills my living room freely. They're both audiophile and professional listening: I'm a music critic. Sometimes I want to convert them into active speakers with the help of their designer, now retired but still at the forefront of technology. He tells me it's easy because the passive crossover, although complex due to steep slopes, uses very little driver correction.


The Kali IN V8 2? For 800 euros a pair. I don't see any passive solution plus amplifiers that could be used against them at the same price. They are excellent and do what they do admirably well. They have much less power than the Divatech MC 210s, but have an equally precise soundstage and are a pleasure to listen to, even a great one. I don't doubt there are better options, but at this price, I have my doubts... And they are completely silent.

Regarding amplifiers failing: yes, probably. But there's no shortage of speakers with worn-out suspensions, cracked cones, and other such joys in hi-fi brands that are incapable of repairing their old drivers...

The only thing I refuse is speakers connected to act as a streamer... no way...

As for the power outlet, that's not a real problem, nor is the interconnect cable to connect them to the preamplifier... in multi-channel setups, it's more complicated, but it can be done.