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Are speakers the Achilles heal in sound reproduction?

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gags11

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Thread Starter #21
They "clip" as they reach the limits of excursion.

Basically, you'll see, when measuring a sine tone, more and more harmonics at higher and higher levels.

It will "look" very similar to what an amp does.
Exactly! I want to see where and how speakers clip, as we do with amps
 

RayDunzl

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#22
Thee are people here arguing that a good amp is judged by continuous max output vs distortion, etc. why not put speakers to similar tests?
Get the tools, do it yourself.
 

RayDunzl

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#23

QMuse

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#25
Thee are people here arguing that a good amp is judged by continuous max output vs distortion, etc. why not put speakers to similar tests?
Why not indeed. Spend $100 for UMIK-1 mic, download REW, crank up your amp and measure your speakers.
 

RayDunzl

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#27
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gags11

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Thread Starter #28
My point is that I would like to see how speakers behave as voltage goes up. I would think this is the most important aspect in the whole sound reproduction chain.
 

PaulD

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#29
The number one "distortion" is two channel stereo.

Then rooms and speakers.
SIY is right.

Of the things you can change or fix, speakers are the easiest. Then there is the room.

Finally you are playing a highly variable 2 channel recording through it... I am still amazed how well this can capture a musical performance when done really well - the problems from beginning to end are excruciating!

I would add that after the 2-channel problem, there is the whole difficulty of microphones and their placement for recordings... I have spent a lifetime on that and it seems to be a wicked problem (thus the 2 channel issue, and I have worked in Ambisonics and WFS...)
 

q3cpma

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#31
About the thread title: yes, obviously. After the room, of course.
I also have a question to all the engineers here. How is the passive crossover inside the speaker box altering sound? Does it introduce any distortion? Can you measure distortion that these passive crossovers create?

My guess is that they do introduce lots of distortion, but since the transducer distortions hover way above that level, we don’t care.
I don't think it creates distorsion, but I've never heard a passive with the punch/dynamics of a comparable (driver configuration and size) active; probably what engineers mean when they talk about damping factor or "how much control the amp has on the raw driver".
 
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QMuse

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#32
About the thread title: yes, obviously. After the room, of course.

I don't think it creates distorsion, but I've never heard a passive with the punch/dynamics of a comparable (driver configuration and size) active; probably what engineers mean when they talk about damping factor or "how much control the amp has on the raw driver".
That is your subjective opinion. And regarding dumping factor, no, not related to passive vs active XO.
 

QMuse

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#34
The damping factor is of course reduced due the impedance of the passive crossover but as always in audio important is how much and how much that would be audible, there is an older thread about it in this forum
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ctor-and-why-is-it-important.1257/#post-32159
As it wisely says in the conclusion, not an issue at all. :)

Conclusions
"There may be audible differences that are caused by non-zero source resistance. However, this analysis and any mode of measurement and listening demonstrates conclusively that it is not due to the changes in damping the motion of the cone at the point where it's at it's most uncontrolled: system resonances. Even considering the substantially larger response variations resulting from the non-flat impedance vs. frequency function of most loudspeakers, the magnitude of the problem simply is not what is claimed.

Rather, the people advocating the importance of high damping factors must look elsewhere for a culprit: motion control at resonance, or damping, simply fails to explain the claimed differences."
 

q3cpma

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#36
That is your subjective opinion. And regarding dumping factor, no, not related to passive vs active XO.
If you want to be pedantic, you can't say "not related" then "negligible" in two posts in a row, mate. Anyway, yes it's my subjective impression, of course; but I don't know if damping factor was related to it, just swinging in the dark, since supposedly knowledgeable people like Rod Eliott invoke it when advancing the merits of bi-amping.

I have no doubt that active is better than passive as a whole, though.
 

QMuse

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#37
If you want to be pedantic, you can't say "not related" then "negligible" in two posts in a row, mate. Anyway, yes it's my subjective impression, of course; but I don't know if damping factor was related to it, just swinging in the dark, since supposedly knowledgeable people like Rod Eliott invoke it when advancing the merits of bi-amping.
Discussing subjective impressions that you think might be related to dumping factor is pointless, especially on a forum like this.

I have no doubt that active is better than passive as a whole, though.
Such general statements are also pointless as it varies from cases to case. I have seen, listened and measured many excellent passive speakers driven by SOTA amps producing measurements that vast majority of active speakers cannot even dream to come close. Once you apply EQ to passive speakers to correct their FR and phase response active technology doesn't sound that superior anymore.
 

q3cpma

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#39
Such general statements are also pointless as it varies from cases to case. I have seen, listened and measured many excellent passive speakers driven by SOTA amps producing measurements that vast majority of active speakers cannot even dream to come close. Once you apply EQ to passive speakers to correct their FR and phase response active technology doesn't sound that superior anymore.
Cost saving and lack of power waste are objective enough, no? Cost saving, especially, since except some extremely expensive speakers, there's always corner cutting somewhere.
Also, don't talk about subjective to me when you go there yourself. Especially the "SOTA amp" part, when it has been proved countless times that all decently designed amps with loads of power are the same when listened to through a loudspeaker.
 

LTig

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#40
Well you can search for it but I doubt you will find many actual measurements as THD is simply not an issue with simple networks made of passive components.
Well, elcaps do distort with increasing voltage across their terminals (as when used in filters like those crossovers), as has been shown by Douglas Self. But certainly much less than the speaker they feed.

And what about coils with a non air core (e.g. ferrit core)? AFAIK they start to distort when the core is driven into saturation. The designer of the crossover has to make sure that this does not happen below specced power.
 
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