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Are pre-amps necessary

leonroy

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> and some heavily modded polk sda 1.2TL's speakers

Good grief, those speakers are intense.

I had the good fortune to hear Polk's SRT home theater system and that was possibly the most impressive audition of audio gear I've ever had in my life. These seem to be in the same ballpark according to their specs:

Frequency Response: 10Hz - 26kHz
Weight: 180 lbs each
Depth: 13"
Width 21"
Height: 63"

You should definitely post some pictures here and info about the modifications you made :D
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-kit-we-bought-our-current-setups.564/
 

Willem

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If you only have digital sources, the way to go is to ditch the pre amplifier and use a DAC with volume control. Personally, I love my RME ADI-2 DAC. It is not only completely transparent, but it also has traditional pre amplifier virtues like tone and balance controls, plus dynamic loudness and some parametric filtering.
 
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thejck

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I think that you are right to want those two features in a DAC that also has very good SINAD. There are now quite a few that Amir has reviewed that meet these criteria and cost much less than the the RME. The RME's headphone amp is a nice feature; it might be worth considering if you also want that. Otherwise, many reviewed SMSL, Topping or Sabaj options would meet those criteria for much less.
one of the ones i am looking at is the minidsp SHD. A side project that I am working on is a infinite baffle subwoofer build for a completely separate HT setup I have in the same room. I was thinking about tying in the new sub into my 2 channel stereo setup as well and the shd seems to have the ability to do crossover and send the low frequencies directly to the sub.
Do the minimal differences in the SINAD in the blue spectrum of his ratings mean much? or are they all in a range where it would be inaudible? Would going for broke on the best rated one (matrix x-sabre) if i had the money to spend get me much more than some of the cheaper smsl or topping ones?
 
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thejck

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> and some heavily modded polk sda 1.2TL's speakers

Good grief, those speakers are intense.

I had the good fortune to hear Polk's SRT home theater system and that was possibly the most impressive audition of audio gear I've ever had in my life. These seem to be in the same ballpark according to their specs:

Frequency Response: 10Hz - 26kHz
Weight: 180 lbs each
Depth: 13"
Width 21"
Height: 63"

You should definitely post some pictures here and info about the modifications you made :D
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-kit-we-bought-our-current-setups.564/

There was a group over on the polk forums that did some extensive work on them and I followed along. some of the mods I did were.
1. metal rings on the backside of the cabinet for the drivers to screw into to help the air tightness
2. completely new crossover boards and components
3. replacing one of the low frequency crossovers inductures with a hugh 50 lb crossover that i had to mount on the bottom of the speaker.
4. new tweeters that sound a lot less harsh than the old ones.

Not a lot of people out there understand them. I have had many people tell me to replace the speakers as the weak point. They are my pride and joy.
 

GrimSurfer

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Digital attenuation is less about loss and more about noise floor. A 16 bit stream can represent a dynamic range of 96 db, hence it has a noise floor of -96 db. If you would keep the stream at 16 bit and lower the amplitude of the signal, with each 1db of lowering you will get 1db closer to the noise floor, until at -96db your signal will be lost in the noise floor. Of course, you will hear a rise in noise way before that.

But digital volume control doesn't usually work like that. If you take a 16 bit file and stream it over a 24 bit stream, which has 120 db SNR, you can potentially lower the amplitude of the 16 bit audio by 24 db before any loss of SNR will take place. And it gets better as you improve your bit depth. At 32 bit you have potentially 192 db of SNR, so you can almost lower the 16 bit audio by its full 96 db SNR and just barely scratch the noise floor of the 32 bit stream.

You need also to consider two other factors. First is the practical SNR of your entire system, and of your own hearing. CDs were made with 16 bit because that’s way more than you realistically need to play any sort of music in any setting other than maybe an anechoic chamber. Since your base noise floor in whatever room you're are listening in is probably higher than 30 db, you don't really need even 96 db of SNR. And most systems will have less SNR, where amplifiers and mostly speakers are the limiting factor.

Dacs are usually the least limiting piece in the chain, and well-engineered dacs can easily have SNR of 100 db and more. And that’s the second factor to consider – you can only realistically use the bit depth whose SNR is lower than the SNR of your dac (called linearity sometimes). Say, if your dac has 110 SNR, you can't even use the full potential of 24 bit audio, let alone 32 bit. But that is not really a problem.

Think of it like this – say you have a base noise of 30 db SPL in your listening room (which is really low). If you set up your system to play 16 bit audio such that the quietest possible bit is at 30 db SPL, that would make the loudest possible bit (0dbFS) at 126 db SPL! Which is higher than the threshold of pain for humans, and is as loud as a jackhammer close by. You'll probably never listen to music at that volume, and I doubt most speakers can play at that volume without distorting terribly.

That means that most dacs has more than enough SNR to digitally control the volume without any perceptual noise floor. If a dac has that option built in, make sure it's converting the stream to 24 bits at least. 32 bits is the professional industry standard for audio editing, so anything beyond that is completely overkill. Nothing in the world has more than 192 db SNR anyway.

You have also clever solutions like the one in the RME ADI-2-DAC that uses digital volume control. In the default mode it has more than enough SNR to control the volume seamlessly, but if you are still concerned, you can optimize its noise floor by setting the base reference level to your liking using actual analog circuitry, to get the best SNR possible. It even has a mode in which it blends together digital and analog control to automatically achieve the lowest possible noise floor. But this is a massive overkill in most cases.

So to conclude, fear not from digital volume control. If the dac is decent and you resample your stream to 24 bit at least, it will be completely transparent.

Awesome post, @Fluffy.
 

Kal Rubinson

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Here's my current volume control. It operates JRiver's 64bit internal volume but is out of the signal path itself:
DROK.jpg
 
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thejck

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If you have a tuner, a turntable and maybe a few other random line level sources, use a quality preamplifier. Like your P3. It's a quality piece of gear- personally, I don't know why you'd consider replacing it.

If it's just you and your one digital source, a D/A may be sufficient, but digital volume controls are generally horrible. Personally, I can't stand them.
i was reading some reviews about the p3 and it stated it was missing something in the low end. of course there is no way to tell without a A/B test. hence the thought about looking for an upgrade.
Since my only music source is now my PC i dont really need the rest of the P3 inputs.
 

anmpr1

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One thing I miss on my HGC DAC/preamp is a balance control. With analog records, balance is often an issue. Especially with mono, getting the center image dead. I think a balance control could be helpful in a room where loudspeakers are not symmetrically placed--where room interactions affect the sound balance. But balance controls are seldom seen on this type of gear.
 

flipflop

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Kal Rubinson

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Kal Rubinson

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I like it. I think I'll get one for my desk- saves me reaching over to pull the mouse or keyboard out from underneath something. :)
Yup. Now I am working on something like that but wireless.
 

GrimSurfer

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Ha ha. The energy I save using this new fangled device can now be put to good use at the gym.

Nah!
 

rodtor

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Do the minimal differences in the SINAD in the blue spectrum of his ratings mean much? or are they all in a range where it would be inaudible? Would going for broke on the best rated one (matrix x-sabre) if i had the money to spend get me much more than some of the cheaper smsl or topping ones?

Apologies for my tardy response. I am not technically expert in these matters and will readily defer to the judgement of those here who are. Nevertheless, my guess is that the answer to your first two questions is yes regardind DACs with SINAD above 110. I doubt that you need the Matrix unless it has specific features that you really want. In evaluating a DAC reviewed here it nevertheless might be best to look at all of the other measurements offered by Amir, and at his comments, as well as read at least the first few pages in the subsequent thread. I often find those discussions add important additional context.
 
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thejck

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thanks for your response.
i guess. my lack of electronic knowledge is showing up. I hate to admit that some of his measurements are like greek to me. I wish he had a "reference" that stated what each graph is and how tis important and what to look for. :)
 
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