Are "non-conventional" speaker designs worthwhile, or just gimmicks?

[Sokel]

Probably most of the speakers I love are "conventional" and somehow similar with my only demand a big-ish space.
But I do also like (even love at areas) big planars (everyone I have listened too other than at dealers and shows was modified though) .

I would still (really) like to listen to a dipole like Kypon Audio's Gaia (I love it's looks and that's a big plus for me)

 

[DanielT]

They are around 50 years old...

There is a risk that the drivers are more or less worn out. Even if they work, it is not certain (probably not) that they perform according to spec. 50 years old whatever capacitors in that crossover may need to be replaced.

The age plus the fact that quite a few of them were sold means there is now a demand for new crossover filters and new drivers suitable for popping in the OA14 speaker boxes. And there are such kit. Tested, measured, calculated in various speaker design programs and so on by knowledgeable people. If it's worth around $650 for such an upgrade kit? I don't know. Perhaps.

New tweeters, bass drivers and crossovers for OA14:



In line with the thread, thoughts about "non-conventional" speaker designs:
As the years went by, Stig Carlsson's OA speakers became less omni. In fact, the last model OA 52.2 which arrived in 1996 was a two-way speaker with thick fabric blankets on the walls near the baffle to dampen reflections. Not much omni with them so to speak:


Was it Stig Carlsson's perception of sound ideal that changed over the decades from the 1950s when he started? Other market demand? Was it other sound ideals among potential buyers that made Stig Carlsson change his speaker designs? I don't know.

In any case, there were a lot of really weird speakers in the 1970s. Drivers scattered on the baffle as if they were fired from a shotgun, for example.
My guess is that with better calculation programs (computer power), simulations, increased knowledge, these quirks thinned out. Plus amp power on tap became cheaper so the need for large (horn) speakers with high sensitivity decreased over time.

Since dipoles are discussed in the thread. Here are some I heard. The dipole speakers in the video below, the long DIY AMTs together with bass boxes are probably the best I've heard. The guy in the red shirt standing up and filming in the video is me:

 

[mhardy6647]

For the sake of this question, let's assume that a conventional speaker has:

• a box or box-ish enclosure
• one tweeter
• one or more woofers
• an analogue crossover or DSP

Basically all the most well regarded speakers on ASR follow this convention (all executed differently, of course), from manufacturers such as Neumann, Genelec, Revel, KEF, Kii

My question is, is there any merit to speakers that stray from this convention? Examples include:

• Magneplanar (e.g. Magnepan)
• ESL (e.g. Martin Logan)
• Open baffle (e.g. Spatial Audio Labs)
• Linkwitz's designs (e.g. LX521)

Can any of these other types of speakers seriously contend with the most well engineered designs from a company like KEF?

Sure.
Many (most) are still actively produced by somebody. More to the point, they even manage to sell at least some -- i.e., there's a market.

Even open baffles!
Speaking of OB and the vagaries of for-profit "manufacturing" - here's a fun saga from Elsewhere.

Clayton Shaw Caladan speakers - anyone take possession of a new pair?

These newly released speakers were suppose to start shipping in maybe January 2024 or February 2024 for sure. Anyone taken possession of a pair? If yes, please share your impressions.

audiokarma.org

Got a few non-canonical loudspeaker designs here -- especially if one counts nonstandard monkey coffin variants such as tapered quater-wave tubes (pipes).

EDIT:
PS I don't think anyone's even mentioned electrodynamic drivers!?!

(the top one is an electrodynamic full range. BINGO!)

 

[dguillor]

My two cents. I have a system that uses DML speakers, which are omnidirectional and diffuse. They fill the room much better than my traditional speakers. If you move around the room you will notice much less variance than with the traditional box speakers, both due to angle and distance. In some applications that’s a big deal.

 

[Theta]

For the sake of this question, let's assume that a conventional speaker has:

• a box or box-ish enclosure
• one tweeter
• one or more woofers
• an analogue crossover or DSP

Basically all the most well regarded speakers on ASR follow this convention (all executed differently, of course), from manufacturers such as Neumann, Genelec, Revel, KEF, Kii

My question is, is there any merit to speakers that stray from this convention? Examples include:

• Magneplanar (e.g. Magnepan)
• ESL (e.g. Martin Logan)
• Open baffle (e.g. Spatial Audio Labs)
• Linkwitz's designs (e.g. LX521)

Can any of these other types of speakers seriously contend with the most well engineered designs from a company like KEF?

They sure can.

 

[terryforsythe]

Can any of these other types of speakers seriously contend with the most well engineered designs from a company like KEF?

I have a pair of KEF LS60 speakers. They are good. But, going from memory, I wouldn't put them on par with the Infinity Reference Standards nor IRS Betas, which use open baffle ribbons. That being said, I heard those speakers nearly 35 years ago. It's hard to say whether I would be just as impressed with those speakers today as I was then.

 

[DanielT]

My two cents. I have a system that uses DML speakers, which are omnidirectional and diffuse. They fill the room much better than my traditional speakers. If you move around the room you will notice much less variance than with the traditional box speakers, both due to angle and distance. In some applications that’s a big deal.

If you move in the listening room. If there are several people on the sofa and or in the armchairs when listening to music or watching a movie. If the living room filled with people at a party. Absolutely, omnis can be something to think about then. But if there is space to fill the room with many speakers, big enough wallet, plus acceptable interior aesthetic for it, why not a home theater system with several speakers? It gives choices.Then you can switch between pinpointed two-channel sound to a sound scenario where all amp channels and associated speakers spread the sound in the room.

 

[DonDish]

The first high end speaker I listened to was Apogee Duetta Paired with Proceed CD player and Marc Levinson pre/power. Playing Pink Floyd/Is there anybody out there? 37 y later that experience still fuels my audio interrest. Of course these werent for everybody. They needed some maintenance after a while. True full range models where "2" meters tall. They where popularly driven by class A amps like Threshold, Krell and ML. Impedance was close to short circuit They had an insane "immersive" quality, you litterary stod in the middle of music. Magnets where mounted on some steel mesh behind ribbons, so "half dipole"?

 

[Duke]

Magnets where mounted on some steel mesh behind ribbons, so "half dipole"?

I think they were dipoles, with air gaps between the rows of magnets.

But they were "single-ended" (magnets on one side of the woofer diaphragm only; not sure about the high frequency diaphragm). So as the diaphragm moved away from the magnets, the force on the diaphragm was reduced. And as the diaphragm moved towards the magnets, the force on the diaphragm increased. My understanding is that second harmonic distortion is higher with single-ended (as opposed to push-pull) ribbons, and my understanding is also that second harmonic distortion is perceptually benign.

I think Maggies also have single-ended woofer panels.

They had an insane "immersive" quality, you litterary stod in the middle of music.

Yes they did! My first encounter with big Apogees (driven by Jeff Rowland amplification) was likewise a paradigm-shifting event.

 

[beeface]

Oh, he's beautiful. How long did your boy take to grow to "full size"?

I'm not sure, my partner got her years before we met. BUT, I can tell you she's pretty diminutive for a ragdoll as she was the runt of her litter. From memory she's about 2.3kg

 

[MattHooper]

My question is, is there any merit to speakers that stray from this convention? Examples include:

• Magneplanar (e.g. Magnepan)
• ESL (e.g. Martin Logan)
• Open baffle (e.g. Spatial Audio Labs)
• Linkwitz's designs (e.g. LX521)

To throw in another example: I owned MBL Radialstahler omnis and they were f*cking amazing. Spooky real with some stuff, and overall tended to make plenty of traditional designs sound like woofers and tweeters in boxes.

 

[DanielT]

I'm guessing gimmick. A joke or not? I don't know.

I can't post the link to their page here, you have to google it:

 

[Dave_Reite]

The Linkwitz 521.4 suffers from being too complicated to be a readily-marketable and understood product. I have met very few people in my life who would understand how to set them up even if they were to buy them from the one company in Germany which makes turnkey systems. And even then, they are so expensive that few persons beyond hard core enthusiasts with money to burn would take the plunge.

That's an interesting observation and one that I've been considering for many years.
Unfortunately, I just don't think the typical audiophile customer is willing to step outside the traditional paradigms.
Hmmmm.

Dave Reite.

 

[DonDish]

I'm guessing gimmick. A joke or not? I don't know.
View attachment 404493
I can't post the link to their page here, you have to google it:
View attachment 404492

A tad more serious than this

 

[mhardy6647]

I'm guessing gimmick. A joke or not? I don't know.
View attachment 404493
I can't post the link to their page here, you have to google it:
View attachment 404492

Nope, not a joke -- at least not per se. I had an in-home demo of a larger pair than that from a dealer based (at least at the time) in Chicago. I am drawing a blank on the name of the company, though.
In essence, a back loaded horn.
They were OK.

EDIT: Dude, I found the ones I heard. Specimen horns. Apparently they are still at it.

Legacy Horns - Specimen Products

www.specimenproducts.com

Current Horns - Specimen Products

www.specimenproducts.com

example current horn product.

 

[Timcognito]

Larsen and Alison have designs that use the front wall to distribute sound throughout the room with the theory that sum of mean pathways of sound left and right will remain close to equal wherever one listens in the room. So a deliberate mix of direct and indirect sound at the expense of some soundstage.

Ortho Acoustic – Larsen HiFi

www.larsenhifi.com

 

[mhardy6647]

The Allisons (at least their original line-up) were quite nice, too.
Had a pair of Allison Ones here for a long time -- they've gone on to a better place.



The original DCM timewindows did a pretty good job, as well -- not meant to be against a wall, but nice overall sound and an interesting enclosure morphology (based on "Sonotube" cardboard forms for pouring concrete footings).
Still have a pair of those -- not that they're better than the aforementioned Allisons, but my pair of timewindows are too darned homely to re-home successfully.



PS The Allisons were dump finds, but I paid $10 for the timewindows at a local charity fleamarket ca. 25 years ago.

 

[Timcognito]

The Allisons (at least their original line-up) were quite nice, too.
Had a pair of Allison Ones here for a long time -- they've gone on to a better place.

@SIY is restoring some and says he will test and share his findings, but says his project list is long.

 

[SIY]

@SIY is restoring some and says he will test and share his findings, but says his project list is long.

Probably finish them over Christmas break. Of course, these were @mhardy6647 's.

 

[mhardy6647]

@SIY is restoring some and says he will test and share his findings, but says his project list is long.

a far better place.
Marky smiles knowingly...


EDIT: @SIY himself beat me to it.
Discretion 's never been my strong suit. Or is that suite?