Are my tastes changing? I am beginning to prefer Luxman over Yamaha

[Roland68]

'Yamaha' always makes me think of outboard motors. I know it's wrong but it's the first place I go.

Funny, when I think of Yamaha the first things that come to mind are grand pianos, upright pianos, guitars and electronic/digital pianos.

Maybe that's just because of the preferred sound....

 

[Bob from Florida]

What we need is a test for clipping recovery characteristics into a reactive load. More than one reactive load - easy and difficult. That data would be interesting to evaluate in concert with listening tests.

 

[Doodski]

Funny, when I think of Yamaha the first things that come to mind are grand pianos, upright pianos, guitars and electronic/digital pianos.

Maybe that's just because of the preferred sound....

I come from a motorcycle background that started at a young age. So I was familiarized with Yamaha Motorcycles and when I got older and Yamaha audio gear was introduced to me I thought that kinda strange. But the reality is Yamaha makes awesome motorcycles, outboard motors for marine application, generators, musical instruments, semi-conductors and lotsa other stuff and it's all good stuff. Yamaha is now also making golf clubs and boats too.

 

[Mikig]

most amps will send the exact. same signal to the speaker

Yes, you are right, but we must not forget other parameters;
let's consider the Slew rate and the damping factor of the amplifier: the first indicates the capacity or rather the speed with which the amplifier is able to manage the transients in the musical message. The second parameter indicates the ability of the amplifier to manage the running of the speaker drivers.
Amplifiers with different designs may give a different listening result, in terms of speed, distortion and precision.
Then of course, if we take amplifiers with the same design or circuit, the result will be indistinguishable.

 

[Mikig]

Other than a big difference in total power output they have good enough specs to be indistinguishable from each other as long as not at clipping. The more powerful one has a advantage because the level of power on the lower powered one is pretty low.

No, it is not. It is in large majority the speakers that contribute to this and providing he chooses from 4 Ohm speaker impedance rated amps he should be good to go and then he just needs to decide on what amp he wants to get.

Yes, and at this range of power output it is best to get the more powerful amp even if it costs way less and so the Yamaha looks good.

there is no doubt that the "voice" of the system is given by the speakers, but in the previous post I stated that this "voice" can differ depending on the ability of an amplifier to manage the speakers.
I'll give you an example: I'm using 82 db and 4ohm speakers, medium, they go even lower. What I maintain is that while the qualitative timbre is almost identical, whether I am using a 76w/8ohm integrated or the 180w/8ohm power amp, the musical message is different. And you don't need AB to understand it.
The second amplifier, the power one, manages the speakers without distortion, at a higher speed and at a higher volume.
Which doesn't happen with the first amplifier. You really notice the difference on the transients, on the peaks, on the bass. With the first amplifier, the music is much flatter, less dynamic, the bass tends to distort.
It's not a problem of timbre or sound signature; the problem is that the first amplifier simply cannot handle rather difficult speakers. The end result, the music, is less enjoyable.
This is an almost extreme case: I absolutely agree with you that two almost identical, modern, well-studied amps, with easy-to-drive speakers... you have to use the lantern to find differences...

 

[Doodski]

the musical message is different.

What is this?

at a higher speed

What is this?

You really notice the difference on the transients, on the peaks, on the bass.

There has been maybe 3 amps that actually had a different sound out of thousands of different models I have handled in sales and repair and that I was able to AB.

 

[Doodski]

the Slew rate and the damping factor of the amplifier: the first indicates the capacity or rather the speed with which the amplifier is able to manage the transients in the musical message.

The slew rate is measured at max bandwidth and also is represented by the slope and by using any of these variables the upper frequency limitation of the amp can be determined. So they are all inter-related and basically repeats of a measurement stated using a different method. If a class A/AB amp has a bandwidth up to 200 k Hz then the slope is pretty much meaningless at that point because it is so steep that the low frequency audio we hear just passes through.

 

[Balle Clorin]

There is no way 30W Luxman would be enough for Focal Sopras.

30w is in class A it goes over to AB above that and does not clip until much more 60-80watt if I recall correctly. See the test with measurements
May still be too weak though

 

[Mikig]

What is this?

dynamic listening, not flat, full and undistorted bass, fast and not rolling. Maybe it's because the power amp I always use is quite over the top compared to the other amplifiers I have...

 

[Doodski]

dynamic listening, not flat, full and undistorted bass, fast and not rolling. Maybe it's because the power amp I always use is quite over the top compared to the other amplifiers I have...

So you are defining tight accurate bass as fast?

 

[Mikig]

Ci sono stati forse 3 amplificatori che in realtà avevano un suono diverso da migliaia di modelli diversi che ho gestito nelle vendite e nella riparazione e che sono stato in grado di AB.

one was mine!!!

 

[Mikig]

So you are defining tight accurate bass as fast?

I define that if you use an amplifier that can't drive a pair of speakers, the music is anything but pleasant! But Dood, I agree that now most of the devices in circulation, if competent, are almost identical!!!

 

[Mikig]

So you are defining tight accurate bass as fast?

yes: the opposite of swelling and rolling bass!

 

[Vacceo]

And what about reviewers like Steve Hoffman, Andrew Robinson, etc when they review amps and describe the sound characteristics? The don't say all amps sounds indistinguishable so we won't cover that.

They do not measure, so their take is as good as yours.

They do not have a frame of reference out of their own perception, and human perception is not a very safe and standarized thing. That is why we have measuring tape, thermometers or clocks.

 

[JeffS7444]

I can tell a difference between my Yamahas and Luxman.

I can even tell a difference between the Yamaha AS-3200 and Yamaha rn-2000a. I thought the AS-3200 sounded bland by itself. When I added the rn-2000a as a preamp instead, it sounds more colored which I liked.

It may not seem like big differences in the beginning. But day after to day for over a year the differences can be seem big enough to set a sonic preference. Is this going to really upset some people that I can tell a difference?

And what about reviewers like Steve Hoffman, Andrew Robinson, etc when they review amps and describe the sound characteristics? The don't say all amps sounds indistinguishable so we won't cover that.

Yup, I too could "hear" differences between amplifiers, preamps, wires, isolation feet and what-not. Until I started precisely level-matching everything, that is! It's amazing how quickly even "Everyone in the room heard the same thing!" differences can suddenly disappear when you do that. Although minor level mismatches may not be immediately obvious, the louder setup will generally be perceived as more involving/exciting.

Meanwhile, these sorts of distractions may be preventing you from realizing bigger real sonic gains.

 

[DSJR]

Is there actually any SQ difference between the amps, is one not capable of driving your loudspeakers?
Keith

We've been here before, but you need to 'listen' to music through a modern Luxman like this perhaps to understand why some may feel it's a little gentler in presentation than many. I don't know why and at the prices asked, I don't care overmuch now - Like Accuphase though, the 'feel' of the controls is amazingly lovely. Maybe it's how it 'drives' a variable speaker load compared to the Yamaha, which I'm certain is absolutely straight-down-the-line 'neutral.' A dealer pal of mine adores the Luxmans he sells, but I'm an unashamed Quad Artera fan, this latter costing multiples less, so there ya go!

I do remember 1970s models being VERY touchy as regards shorted speaker wires, blowing the output stage all too easily. The L-80V seemed bad here, but the more expensive 95V seemed more able to deal with ham fisted owners.. Didn't the firm change ownership in the late 70's though and cheaper more 'conventional' products came along before they returned to the luxury end fully in the 90's?

 

[Doodski]

yes: the opposite of swelling and rolling bass!

Hmmmz OK... As long as we are all on the same page.

 

[TonyJZX]

i'd love to see a DBX w/ an accuphase e280 luxman L505 vs Yamaha AS1200 and let's throw in the Yamaha AS701 for laughs... I wonder what would happen.

 

[mhardy6647]

Lux/Luxman stuff is (by and large) beautiful and (by and large) exceptionally well designed, engineered, and built.
Luxman, to date, has never quite abandoned vacuum tubes.
Some folks refer to Luxman as The McIntosh of Japan. I think Accuphase might be a better choice for that sobriquet, but you get the picture.
I love Luxman equipment but it was and remains a bit pricey, so I remain (as many if not most here know already) a committed Yamaha fanboy fanperson.

So... now you know what's coming.

Spoiler

In all seriousness, I would (still opine) that the Yamaha stuff, past and present, was/is pretty darned good, pretty much independent of the evaluation criteria.[
(with occasional exceptions, of course)

 

[Doodski]

I love Luxman equipment but it was and remains a bit pricey, so I remain (as many if not most here know already) a committed Yamaha fanboy fanperson.

It's just so good that men oops I mean people-kind can see through the high prices and such.