Are multiple subs always better than one?

[Mort]

My experience is that two subs did not improve my experience or measurements.

We can go into why and whatnot of my measurements if that's interesting to anyone. But it might miss the bigger question I would pose.

Are multiple subs always better (not equal) than one?

 

[ppataki]

My experience is that two subs did not improve my experience or measurements.

We can go into why and whatnot of my measurements if that's interesting to anyone. But it might miss the bigger question I would pose.

Are multiple subs always better than one?

Yes, they are but only if placed strategically

One example project: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/diy-2-2-living-room-project.57939/

 

[sigbergaudio]

My experience is that two subs did not improve my experience or measurements.

We can go into why and whatnot of my measurements if that's interesting to anyone. But it might miss the bigger question I would pose.

Are multiple subs always better than one?

If we want to explore theoreticals, I am sure it's possible to set up a room where one sub gives a perfect response (at a narrow listening position), and adding a second creates cancellations between them, making it worse.

But generally speaking, yes.

 

[ZolaIII]

Picking up +3 dB for free first time or +6 dB together from 45 Hz down is significant alone even +6 dB might not sound much to you it's psy half louder or same SPL to double the distance and so on. You can use pair or pairs of sub's otherwise to improve other aspects of reproduction and to psy how we hear not to baric EQ pressure chamber effect.

 

[DVDdoug]

Are multiple subs always better than one?

You have to be careful saying "always" or "never".

My experience is that two subs did not improve my experience or measurements.

If they are placed symmetrically you MIGHT not gain anything other than more bass or more potential-available bass (which usually doesn't hurt) and it gives you more room to boost where needed.

Standing waves create nodes (dips) and anti-nodes (bumps) at different frequencies at different places in the room. Multiple subs at different locations can potentially combine the direct and reflected soundwaves more randomly (or more favorably) to even-out the dips and bumps throughout the room.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I wrote an article about a few of the main advantages quite recently:

Why Two Subwoofers Are Better Than One

Adding a subwoofer is one of the most effective upgrades you can make to a hi-fi or home cinema system. But once you already have a good subwoofer and enough bass output, it’s natural to ask: What would I actually gain from adding a second one? The answer is not “more bass.” In fact, the biggest...

www.sigbergaudio.com

 

[gnarly]

It depends on what you want.

If you are after the smoothest frequency response you can get at a fixed listening position, the multiple subs carefully located and tuned to work together with the room will provide that. Steady tone bass will be excellent, and can be pants flapping at extreme SPL. But it comes at the expense of creating a bit of sub-mud soup, that diminishes the effect of bass transients.
If you are after the hit like a transient bass drop can provide, along with the potential strength of pants flapping steady state tones......then a mono sub is the surest bet, stereo next, and gets progressively worse as subs are added.
Another inescapable audio tradeoff ime.
I've used rather extreme SPL examples, to hopefully be able to convey the gist of "it depends", which imo/ime is how much do you value low frequency transients (at normal SPL).

 

[sigbergaudio]

If you are after the hit like a transient bass drop can provide, along with the potential strength of pants flapping steady state tones......then a mono sub is the surest bet, stereo next, and gets progressively worse as subs are added.

Hm. So if you don't have subs, only loudspeakers, having bass drivers in both speakers is a suboptimal solution, ideally only one of the speakers should have bass drivers?

 

[gnarly]

Hm. So if you don't have subs, only loudspeakers, having bass drivers in both speakers is a suboptimal solution, ideally only one of the speakers should have bass drivers?

Yep, for transient bass impact, a stereo setup can't quite match mono ime/imo.
It's a well known phenom with live sound. You'll often see a single cluster of subs on smaller scale outdoor events, mainly for this reason (but also to avoid sub to sub cancellations).

No matter the source of sub range content, be it a large sub driver in a main speaker, main speaker sitting on a sub, or separately placed sub, .......
past one source it's just a matter of multiple sources, and their result vectors, no?
How do you get a cleaner/straighter vector than a single source?

Imo, the whole in-room multiple sub idea is about exciting as many room modes as possible....maximizing room modes.
Like said, great for steady state tonal smoothness.......but it's a hodge-podge of vectorization and time arrivals.

The other path, fewer in-room subs, and room modes' attenuation via EQ, does a better job of cleaning up the sub soup ime/imo.

I run LCR mains each sitting on top of identical subs. Any one, two, or all three subs can be used...along with any main in mono, any main pair in stereo, or all three main in LCR.
And I have additional subs for further room placements. For transient bass impact...mono is damn tough to beat, even indoors.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Yep, for transient bass impact, a stereo setup can't quite match mono ime/imo.
It's a well known phenom with live sound. You'll often see a single cluster of subs on smaller scale outdoor events, mainly for this reason (but also to avoid sub to sub cancellations).

No matter the source of sub range content, be it a large sub driver in a main speaker, main speaker sitting on a sub, or separately placed sub, .......
past one source it's just a matter of multiple sources, and their result vectors, no?
How do you get a cleaner/straighter vector than a single source?

Imo, the whole in-room multiple sub idea is about exciting as many room modes as possible....maximizing room modes.
Like said, great for steady state tonal smoothness.......but it's a hodge-podge of vectorization and time arrivals.

The other path, fewer in-room subs, and room modes' attenuation via EQ, does a better job of cleaning up the sub soup ime/imo.

I run LCR mains each sitting on top of identical subs. Any one, two, or all three subs can be used...along with any main in mono, any main pair in stereo, or all three main in LCR.
And I have additional subs for further room placements. For transient bass impact...mono is damn tough to beat, even indoors.

I guess I theoretically agree, but I suspect the real effect is lost by an uneven response. So a more even response of a couple of subs will give a more tactile experience than a single sub with one or more dips. I find dual mono subs to typically work quite well.

 

[ZolaIII]

@gnarly excuse me how would you sum sub's better then they sum their self on their own or how it's in master? It's a standing wave fully under 45 Hz. If you want transistent response you make sure you put right bounderis to the right places (low self to sub's capabilities, sub's crossovers to 120 Hz, mid bass woofers crossovers to 240~250 Hz) and it will all be dandy including time domain (down again to sub's capabilities and what you might prioritise I am talking 6~7 ms at 30 Hz).

 

[Adaboy4z]

I found positioning of the sub made the biggest difference. I have a 12 inch sealed sub and it sounded the best on the right side of my room pulled out away from the wall. The whole room was filled with chest thumping bass and smooth match for my speakers.

 

[jmdesignz2]

My experience is that two subs did not improve my experience or measurements.

We can go into why and whatnot of my measurements if that's interesting to anyone. But it might miss the bigger question I would pose.

Are multiple subs always better (not equal) than one?

I was going to buy a second sub

But decided to DIY some Acoustic treatments. For $150 I made a corner bass trap from 6 batts of 2" thick acoustic shredded denim (2x4ft)
The corner bass trap was insane ROI. After installation, the bass became "bottomless" due to lack of boominess. Extremely clear textures
Absolutely obliterated any desire to buy a second sub.

$250 for a pair of DIY 6" thick panels (one behind each speaker) cured my SBIR and significantly smoothed out the phase response.

 

[ZolaIII]

I was going to buy a second sub

But decided to DIY some Acoustic treatments. For $150 I made a corner bass trap from 6 batts of 2" thick acoustic shredded denim (2x4ft)
The corner bass trap was insane ROI. After installation, the bass became "bottomless" due to lack of boominess. Extremely clear textures
Absolutely obliterated any desire to buy a second sub.

$250 for a pair of DIY 6" thick panels (one behind each speaker) cured my SBIR and significantly smoothed out the phase response.

Actually now you need another sub more than ever. You get +6 dB under 45 Hz and it's same only one wave but you gain a lot of benefits above that doing it 2.2.

 

[gnarly]

I guess I theoretically agree, but I suspect the real effect is lost by an uneven response. So a more even response of a couple of subs will give a more tactile experience than a single sub with one or more dips. I find dual mono subs to typically work quite well.

I think the uneven response you mention is a big masker for trying to sort it all out. (By uneven response made from being indoors. )

For me, there are two parts to tactile that I've been trying to portay....one is more steady state vibrations, and the other is impact of a kick drum or electronic bass drop.

Indoors, with the ability to try different scenarios, it's track by track which scenario will be best at those two forms of tactile. Steady state is the easier and more forgiving one.
Impact varies alot.

Outdoors, both steady state and impact invariably favor mono, ime/imo.
Good ole audio compromises, huh?

 

[gnarly]

@gnarly excuse me how would you sum sub's better then they sum their self on their own or how it's in master? It's a standing wave fully under 45 Hz. If you want transistent response you make sure you put right bounderis to the right places (low self to sub's capabilities, sub's crossovers to 120 Hz, mid bass woofers crossovers to 240~250 Hz) and it will all be dandy including time domain (down again to sub's capabilities and what you might prioritise I am talking 6~7 ms at 30 Hz).

Not sure what you're asking...
Stereo to mono summation? Room effects? Speaker tuning? I'm lost....

 

[jmdesignz2]

Actually now you need another sub more than ever. You get +6 dB under 45 Hz and it's same only one wave but you gain a lot of benefits above that doing it 2.2.

I have a single 15" THX Monolith sub Plus the Pair of Philharmonic BMR Towers hooked to a pair of Mono block Buckeye NCX500s

There's no way I could tolerate it any louder without risking hearing damage LOL

 

[ZolaIII]

Not sure what you're asking...
Stereo to mono summation? Room effects? Speaker tuning? I'm lost....

No question whose simple, rest is a guide line and to 2.2 no room whatsoever before mentioned by me that part is separate and didn't even want to go there. Some things still with room treatment and some on DSP.
Well you can't. If it's mono master rest will sum better but what can only be one is one. You do impulse marching FIR as perfect placement dosent exist.

 

[ZolaIII]

I have a single 15" THX Monolith sub Plus the Pair of Philharmonic BMR Towers hooked to a pair of Mono block Buckeye NCX500s

There's no way I could tolerate it any louder without risking hearing damage LOL

Not for louder, for lower SPL with good equal loudness integration. To how much ms delay you cut THX Monolith?

 

[janbth]

There are some misconceptions about the multisub technique to combat room modes in this thread. In my previous setup I used two subs to reduce a nasty peak at 45 Hz in my listening room. This REW measurement shows how my two subs played in mono reduced the peak:

The combined response Sub1 + Sub2 was without any DSP. It was a significant improvement over either sub played on its own.

By the way, I have since then moved on to a setup with Dirac Live ART, which provides another example of two subs performing better than one.