Are Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC Inconsistent?

[amirm]

Why are they harder to interpret?

When you have a single tone, we can look at masking thresholds on each side and decide what is audible and what is not. When you have a dozen tones and their distortion contributions piling on top of each other, this type of analysis can't be easily done.

 

[Jimster480]

When you have a single tone, we can look at masking thresholds on each side and decide what is audible and what is not. When you have a dozen tones and their distortion contributions piling on top of each other, this type of analysis can't be easily done.

I see, but wouldn't you still be able to add up the total distortion around the tones that you are requesting?

 

[amirm]

I see, but wouldn't you still be able to add up the total distortion around the tones that you are requesting?

Not in the toolset I have. It only works for single and dual tones.

 

[Jimster480]

Not in the toolset I have. It only works for single and dual tones.

I think that for now if you can do dual tones, you should probably start doing dual tones for all your reviews.

Not that I don't think you aren't doing a good job, I'm playing the devils advocate here today

 

[amirm]

I think that for now if you can do dual tones, you should probably start doing dual tones for all your reviews.

I already do. All the IMD tests are dual tone by definition.

 

[SIY]

I already do. All the IMD tests are dual tone by definition.

If 42 tones is not enough, well...

BTW, I'm sure you're aware of the multitone capability in the AP software. The frequencies can be set so that any harmonics don't fall under the other fundamental tones.

 

[amirm]

Let's continue the theme of the original post and review some other measurements atomicbob has made. In this case, Schiit Modi 2 Multibit. He prefaces the review with this text:

Here is his test of -70 dB sine wave:

Focus on the green curve. That should be a perfect looking sine wave at this level yet it has chewed up sections. Things get a lot more interesting at -90 dB:

The green curve has no resemblance to anything called a sine wave. Here is Topping DX7/DX7ss:

We see a very close match to a sine wave compared to total garbage that Modi 2 Multibit produced according to Bob's measurements. The -90 dB sine wave in Topping DX7/DX7s is cleaner than the Modi 2 multibit at -70 db!

With -90 dB within the envelope of a 16 bit signal, it is not fathomable how he can say this is "incredible performance for 16 bit DAC." The performance does not at all reach 16 bits. We can see this in his linearity measurements:

He is using a whopping 30 dB scale (+20, -10) which helps to flatten the significant error here. See how the error starts very early as low as -70 dB. That means it can't produce 12 bits of resolution correctly.

The error is more dramatic when we look at S/PDIF input as opposed to USB above:

This is what we get out of Topping DX7/DX7s:

There is just no comparison. One design is broken and the other is not. Yet we have commentary from Bob that paints an entirely different and incorrect picture. No wonder people think these are nice DACs despite the data. The data is obfuscated by words that don't match the measurements.

 

[RayDunzl]

For DAC's different multitudes of tones could change the overall performance

Oooh... Can you tell me how they would get it wrong?

No matter how many frequencies are being produced, the DAC needs only to match the output volts to an input sample value and repeat.

My perhaps too simplistic view, but...

(I guess I'm a little late here, but I haven't seen Here's Why for it above. I suppose downstream analog parts would be the first suspect)

 

[amirm]

BTW, my other measurements also match that of atomicbob and again, paint the same picture of him not summarizing performance of these products correctly. See this review of Schiit Bifrost Multibit: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...d-review-of-schiit-bifrost-multibit-dac.2319/

First, atomicbob's measurement:

With my notiation we see the same failings as Modi 2 Multibit. Here are my measurements of the same:

So even though this is with my older Audio Precision analyzer, the match is near perfect. It shows all the same problems except in a much clearer way.

Similar problems are visible in -90 dB sine wave:

And this is his measurement of the same -90 dB sine wave.

That green curve is supposed to be a sine wave! Notice the channel matching spin comment. Who cares if the two channels match if they both are reproducing completely wrong response?

He of course puts the same boilerplate praise at the start of the measurement:

Love the bolding and underlines. Distortion measurements are praised for being excellent because they match not because they are good!

Wonder if as a member of AES local chapter, he has an explanation for why his measurements show anything but lack of "multi-bit magic."

 

[FrantzM]

Oooh... Can you tell me how they would get it wrong?

No matter how many frequencies are being produced, the DAC needs only to match the output volts to an input sample value and repeat.

My perhaps too simplistic view, but...

(I guess I'm a little late here, but I haven't seen Here's Why for it above. I suppose downstream analog parts would be the first suspect)

See!! By explaining it so clearly, you (and the others people in love with measurements but not music ) now have no way to justify how a DAC with the appropriate femto-clock can cost $100,000 !!! or more ...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Jimster480 check your conversations.

 

[Manbeard]

Is atomicbob sponsored by Schiit or something? I don't understand how someone can look at these measurements and give the device praise. Even his measurements don't paint a good picture...

 

[Jimster480]

Is atomicbob sponsored by Schiit or something? I don't understand how someone can look at these measurements and give the device praise. Even his measurements don't paint a good picture...

Anyone who has done measurements on their products has definitely received some compensations. Their findings vs subjective opinions are too far apart.

 

[derp1n]

Anyone who has done measurements on their products has definitely received some compensations. Their findings vs subjective opinions are too far apart.

Source?

 

[Jimster480]

Source?

The source being that you don't measure a device to be literally worse than everything else on the market, and then write about how great it is.
That literally STINKS of money changing hands. And considering how Jude of headfi (the administrator himself) decides to come out to defend schiit who he claims "isn't even a sponsor" is literally UNHEARD of.
Please let me know your sources of other brands who Jude has specifically come out to defend publicly even after the reviews have exposed major flaws?
Otherwise my point stands.

 

[derp1n]

The source being that you don't measure a device to be literally worse than everything else on the market, and then write about how great it is.
That literally STINKS of money changing hands.

There are multiple reasons one might do so, financial interest in various forms is only one possible aspect.

And considering how Jude of headfi (the administrator himself) decides to come out to defend schiit who he claims "isn't even a sponsor" is literally UNHEARD of.

Source of this claim?

They are listed on Head-Fi's sponsor page.

Please let me know your sources of other brands who Jude has specifically come out to defend publicly even after the reviews have exposed major flaws?

Otherwise my point stands.

You seem to have moved from your original claim that anyone who was measured the devices and written a positive review is paid, which you have no evidence for, to a specific accusation about a specific person, which you have no evidence for.

 

[Jimster480]

There are multiple reasons one might do so, financial interest in various forms is only one possible aspect.


Source of this claim?

They are listed on Head-Fi's sponsor page.


You seem to have moved from your original claim that anyone who was measured the devices and written a positive review is paid, which you have no evidence for, to a specific accusation about a specific person, which you have no evidence for.

Nah I just used Jude as an example, but there are various others like Atomic bob and even John Atkinson. JA is a very competant reviewer who has given a completely different subjective opinion vs what his measurements show.

In terms of Schiit being a headfi sponsor.... well when they banned me from HeadFI and Jude himself got super involved in my claim in their thread that there were issues with the USB implementation and that I could reproduce it, he claimed that he was just "making sure incorrect information isn't circulated". After refusing to check into my methods to reproduce the information.

 

[solderdude]

Why all the anger about who's measurements are more correct ?
Both 'camps' feel attacked on their Passion I guess (measuring)
As far as I am concerned Bob knows how to measure shit.
I don't agree with his conclusions though but also don't always agree with Amir's either.

The harsh words thrown down, laying salt on every snail seems to becoming a bit o.t.t.
Becomes more and more like a no-win situation.
At some point in time someone has to be the wisest and call it quits.
I expect (hope) it comes from the most civilized side.

It seems like both camps are pretty close in showing the Iggy doesn't measure well.
Newsflash ... there are more devices that don't measure well but are still liked well by quite a few people.
There are also devices that measure well but some people don't like.
They probably just don't like accurate and prefer something else.
So what ? Why would someone else care ?

Sometimes measurement A shows a bit more hum (which is easy to come by) or is shown differently.
Most angre seems to originate from the personal interpretation of those measurements on both sides of the measurement fence.
Is it worth it (for ones health and dignity) to worry about such ?

Why not just measure and report ?
And if someone does not agree, just don't agree.

I hate so see people go at each others throats over something like this.
What I get is the name calling and smearing of names and reputations which is going on over and forth.
Is it going to get better while continuing this ?

Both sides made their point and rebutal.

Just my 2c.
Would like to see more objective data and civil discussions about this stuff instead of slander, ridicule, defensive shit, name calling (mostly from the other side of the fence)
NO ONE WINS here !

Sorry, had to get this of my chest. Am a constructive criticism kind of guy.

 

[amirm]

Why not just measure and report ?

That is what we like to do. Unfortunately there are people creating doubt regarding the work here and I am tired of answering them over and over again. Now I have a thread I can point them to and be done with it.

 

[Jimster480]

Why all the anger about who's measurements are more correct ?
Both 'camps' feel attacked on their Passion I guess (measuring)
As far as I am concerned Bob knows how to measure shit.
I don't agree with his conclusions though but also don't always agree with Amir's either.

The harsh words thrown down, laying salt on every snail seems to becoming a bit o.t.t.
Becomes more and more like a no-win situation.
At some point in time someone has to be the wisest and call it quits.
I expect (hope) it comes from the most civilized side.

It seems like both camps are pretty close in showing the Iggy doesn't measure well.
Newsflash ... there are more devices that don't measure well but are still liked well by quite a few people.
There are also devices that measure well but some people don't like.
They probably just don't like accurate and prefer something else.
So what ? Why would someone else care ?

Sometimes measurement A shows a bit more hum (which is easy to come by) or is shown differently.
Most angre seems to originate from the personal interpretation of those measurements on both sides of the measurement fence.
Is it worth it (for ones health and dignity) to worry about such ?

Why not just measure and report ?
And if someone does not agree, just don't agree.

I hate so see people go at each others throats over something like this.
What I get is the name calling and smearing of names and reputations which is going on over and forth.
Is it going to get better while continuing this ?

Both sides made their point and rebutal.

Just my 2c.
Would like to see more objective data and civil discussions about this stuff instead of slander, ridicule, defensive shit, name calling (mostly from the other side of the fence)
NO ONE WINS here !

Sorry, had to get this of my chest. Am a constructive criticism kind of guy.

So wait a second, you are saying that this site isn't objective enough because we aren't accepting the subjective bullshit spewed by what look to be paid reviewers of ****** products?
Because that is basically what you said.
There is no subjective review coming from amir that anyone here is "following". We are following measurements and comparisons done, which are scientific.
Amir has now gone to great lengths to "play everyone elses game" with the criticism of his measurements only to show that his measurements were indeed still correct.
The subjective nonsense that is outright false which is created by Schiit paid reviewers and other fanboys/shills/etc is what is being shot down here.
The smearing of names and reputations comes with the BLATANT SCAMMING that is going on by Schiit crew who are literally selling products with worse performance than onboard audio, and claiming them to be upgrades. When a $2400 device performs worse than a $100 device, there are reputations at stake. Because literally everthing being slung by the Schiit affiliates is false, and is literally duping people into spending their money to have worse performance and then pre-conditioning them to believe that it is better. Only to then exile them if they do not agree with the findings of the paid shills or other people who have bought the story they are selling.