Are Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC Inconsistent?

[IdiotCustomer]

Ugh, people are still defending schiit? Dump your schiit and get something better. If you bought garbage equipment then don't feel like an idiot, we have probably all done that at some point. But if you are still defending this horrible performance, or you think that measurements are evil, then you are truly stupid.

I'd really like to dump the jotunheim and move on. I'm searching for separate dac+amp for say $600-$800 total with xlr pre out (for my lsr 305:s), xlr headphone out for the amp, and preferably xlr out from dac to amp. Headphones I have at the moment are the HD 650's and I plan on purchasing HD 800:s in the future (s version ). Could anyone recommend a suitable combo? I've searched everywhere and am yet to find one

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

I.e.: The measurements aren't able to tell the whole story and inadequately describe what we hear.

This seems to be often overlooked by some as a possibility. Also, some can make subjective comments and go unquestioned, while other will be chastised. Such is life. Another thought, IMO some of the acoustic science that many subjectivists hang their hat on, is pseudo junk science. There is so much more to the human brain and processing that gets ignored IMO.

 

[Purité Audio]

One day, Rebbi, one day.
Keith

 

[Wombat]

This seems to be often overlooked by some as a possibility. Also, some can make subjective comments and go unquestioned, while other will be chastised. Such is life.

There are lots of possibilities but most exist in imagination. The crunch comes when making them reality.

 

[solderdude]

@ garbulki and rebbiputzmaker

What makes you think that an ADC can make a (near) perfect recording (the ones you listen to) with all of the subtleties and details and when played back on 'musical gear' sounds wonderful but measurement gear, using even more accurate ADC's and analytic software, cannot capture and analyze it ?

You guys are aware that a stereo signal is just 2 voltages varying over time... right ?
variables: voltage and time. Which can both be measured over 1000x more accurate than any human can do.
The whole measurement suites cover this range way, way, waaaayyy beyond our rather limited hearing capabilities.

Are you perhaps suggesting there is something 'travelling along' a 'hidden signal', something illusive that can influence the sound and passes through certain gear (components, cables) better than other and is of yet unknown and thus not measurable ?
No measurement buff or lab has ever (accidentally) run into unexplained signals of behavior over all these years, yet the mighty 'measuring/analytical' ears can ?
Only ears and brains are capable of detecting this illusive signal ?
A signal that also can be converted to soundwaves by (substantially flawed) transducers being either electrostatic or magnetic based ?
The air can conduct these soundwaves + unknown signal and brain/body/ears can detect that what is not yet measurable ?

 

[Wombat]

@ garbulki and rebbiputzmaker

What makes you think that an ADC can make a (near) perfect recording (the ones you listen to) with all of the subtleties and details and when played back on 'musical gear' sounds wonderful but measurement gear, using even more accurate ADC's and analytic software, cannot capture and analyze it ?

You guys are aware that a stereo signal is just 2 voltages varying over time... right ?
variables: voltage and time. Which can both be measured over 1000x more accurate than any human can do.
The whole measurement suites cover this range way, way, waaaayyy beyond our rather limited hearing capabilities.

Are you perhaps suggesting there is something 'travelling along' a 'hidden signal', something illusive that can influence the sound and passes through certain gear (components, cables) better than other and is of yet unknown and thus not measurable ?
No measurement buff or lab has ever (accidentally) run into unexplained signals of behavior over all these years, yet the mighty 'measuring/analytical' ears can ?
Only ears and brains are capable of detecting this illusive signal ?
A signal that also can be converted to soundwaves by (substantially flawed) transducers being either electrostatic or magnetic based ?
The air can conduct these soundwaves + unknown signal and brain/body/ears can detect that what is not yet measurable ?

There are some on this forum who stubbornly cling to contrary, ephemeral, unsubstantiated views despite the knowledge/evidence that is revealed to them here and elsewhere. Human self-deception/ uncritical self-belief? Who knows?

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

@ garbulki and rebbiputzmaker

What makes you think that an ADC can make a (near) perfect recording (the ones you listen to) with all of the subtleties and details and when played back on 'musical gear' sounds wonderful but measurement gear, using even more accurate ADC's and analytic software, cannot capture and analyze it ?

You guys are aware that a stereo signal is just 2 voltages varying over time... right ?
variables: voltage and time. Which can both be measured over 1000x more accurate than any human can do.
The whole measurement suites cover this range way, way, waaaayyy beyond our rather limited hearing capabilities.

Are you perhaps suggesting there is something 'travelling along' a 'hidden signal', something illusive that can influence the sound and passes through certain gear (components, cables) better than other and is of yet unknown and thus not measurable ?
No measurement buff or lab has ever (accidentally) run into unexplained signals of behavior over all these years, yet the mighty 'measuring/analytical' ears can ?
Only ears and brains are capable of detecting this illusive signal ?
A signal that also can be converted to soundwaves by (substantially flawed) transducers being either electrostatic or magnetic based ?
The air can conduct these soundwaves + unknown signal and brain/body/ears can detect that what is not yet measurable ?

But you do not measure with the brain, you process, there is a difference IMO. Also a difference between individuals. This is why IMO much of the thinking and so-called logic you are using reads well but is not totally correct. Sounds good broken down in simple terms, but IMO lacks the refinement and complexity of the human process. This is still an area with much to learn, but IMO it is rather unfair to just say everyone is misguided or stupid, some might be... but everyone? YMMV

 

[solderdude]

There are some on this forum who stubbornly cling to contrary, ephemeral, views despite the knowledge that is revealed to them here and elsewhere. Human self-deception.

Aren't all humans prone to self-deception ?

I know of a few forums that seem filled to the max. with them though.

 

[Wombat]

Aren't all humans prone to self-deception ?

I know of a few forums that seem filled to the max. with them though.

Definitely. Even in the face of reality. Most audio forums are full of it. Luckily ASR is not as heavily afflicted.

 

[solderdude]

But you do not measure with the brain, you process, there is a difference IMO. Also a difference between individuals. This is why IMO much of the thinking and so-called logic you are using reads well but is not totally correct. Sounds good broken down in simple terms, but IMO lacks the refinement and complexity of the human process. This is still an area with much to learn, but IMO it is rather unfair to just say everyone is misguided or stupid, some might be... but everyone? YMMV

Where did I just say everyone is misguided, stupid and that only some might be but not everyone ?

So your explanation to the signal just being 2 voltages changing over time, be them balanced or not, we are still talking Iggy measurements... right ? is merely 'the brain is processing' yet the analysis of the computer is not a process ?

Agreed about the area where there is much to learn... MUCH MUCH more so than electronics which doesn't hold that much secrets, at least not to those who are really familiar with it.

 

[Soniclife]

Aren't all humans prone to self-deception ?

We certainly seem to be, saw this posted elswhere recently.

 

[solderdude]

Most audio forums are full of it. Luckily ASR is not as heavily afflicted.

That may only be true in the eyes of most ASR members though.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Where did I just say everyone is misguided, stupid and that only some might be but not everyone ?

I did not mean you said that, some do though.

 

[garbulky]

Why? That it the most false part of the question.

That's why I said
"However those are a lot of assumptions."
If there's some measurable evidence to prove the first part is true I haven't seen it. Bob mentioned he had done level matched DBT tests. But likely just on himself. I have't seen those results.

 

[pkane]

But you do not measure with the brain, you process, there is a difference IMO.

But the brain has to work with physical input to be able to process it. If the input is not there, no amount of processing will help create it, except in one's imagination. And physical audio input can be measured very precisely, as others have already pointed out.

 

[garbulky]

@ garbulki and rebbiputzmaker

What makes you think that an ADC can make a (near) perfect recording (the ones you listen to) with all of the subtleties and details and when played back on 'musical gear' sounds wonderful but measurement gear, using even more accurate ADC's and analytic software, cannot capture and analyze it ?

I didn't say that.

(But unrelated to what you asked), there is no such thing as a perfect audio recording of what's happening (music wise) in the physical world. Except for a few niche ones, most of them lack true height recording channels. So already you are missing a dimension. I thought ATMOS was our hope, but it looks like it's been used for special effects in theaters.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

But the brain has to work with physical input to be able to process it. If the input is not there, no amount of processing will help create it, except in one's imagination. And physical audio input can be measured very precisely, as others have already pointed out.

If you say so, but neuroscientists may differ. Let's not get into thresholds and sensitivity. These are critical factors on how one responds to stimuli. Again IMO this is well above most peoples paygrade. But. YMMV

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I'm really struggling to understand the point of much of this discussion.
As I see it, Amir replicated AtomicBob's measurements and compared them to the Topping DX7. They were worse.
That's it

This thread is about those measurements, why are we having a debate about neuroscience ?

 

[solderdude]

there is no such thing as a perfect audio recording of what's happening (music wise) in the physical world. Except for a few niche ones, most of them lack true height recording channels. So already you are missing a dimension. I thought ATMOS was our hope, but it looks like it's been used for special effects in theaters.

That's why I have the word 'near' in there...
regardless of what can be captured during the recording and what happens right to the point of the final master is something that is irrelevant when looking at the playback chain (in this case the Iggy and how it measures). The end result is still 2 voltages changing values over time.
Those are converted to soundwaves and interpreted. That does not change.

But I agree to make the perfect recording one should have holographic mics and speakers that can also capture directions of soundwaves.
The problem I see there is that reflections from the recording space will mix with those in the playback room and will alter the sound experience.
No ... recordings will never be as perfect as the live recordings but there are plenty of very enjoyable and well made 2-ch recordings out there.
These will still have to be reproduced and IMO the technically not superior Iggy will be able to do it well as its performance is well within the capabilities of our hearing (dynamic range approx. 70dB and bandwidth within 0.5dB from 20Hz to 18kHz (44.1) and well beyond at higher rates.

I don't think the Iggy is crap. I do think that the earlier USB implementations are poor and they know it. Yes, it doesn't measure that good but for a multibit with the chips used it isn't bad. That's where I agree with Bob, I just don't agree with the conclusions he draws.
Would I buy an Iggy... no of course not.. simply because I think it is too expensive for what it offers.
That said... those that love their Schitt should keep doing that. After all they are happy as pigs in Schiit with it and that's what count.
They just should not claim it measures well... which it doesn't.
For Schiit fans it measures well enough.

 

[amirm]

Bob mentioned he had done level matched DBT tests. But likely just on himself. I have't seen those results.

I saw the results and he said it was 7/7 or 8/8 or some such thing. Fascinating thing is that when asked at our local AES meetings how audible these distortions are at such low levels he said that one had to play low level signals and then boost them by tens of dBs to be audible. Perhaps that is how he conducted his tests.

I am happy to test him and am confident he won't be able to achieve any results like he is stating.