Are DACs important or not?

[ex audiophile]

I believe that Amir has stated that DACs are not all that important in the audio chain, yet there are dozens of reviews and countless pages written on their merits and weaknesses. Why would that be if all you need is a basic quality DAC in your system? I was going to add an AHB2 to my surround system for the mains, and the Benchmark advisor encourage me to put a high quality DAC, like their Benchmark, between my Anthem AVM 60 and the AHB2 to ensure the best results. And that would have required a new streaming source, blah blah.
So I'm confused by the relative importance of this component, I have come to believe that it is the speakers and the room that are responsible for most of the sound, requiring only basic but quality electronics to sound their best.

 

[dkinric]

You joined this site almost 3 years ago?
Assuming this is not a trolling question, It's not that they are not important, it's that it is relatively easy and inexpensive today to use a DAC that will sound as good or better than any other - regardless of price. There are numerous examples on this site of DACs with measurements that reduce any distortion to below the threshold of hearing.
As for speakers and room being most important and impactful on performance, I think most here would agree with you.

 

[JJB70]

For digital sources a DAC is essential, you won't get very far in digital audio without a DAC. I think the question is rather about price and whether you need a separate DAC. My answers would be not a lot and not necessarily. Many devices have perfectly adequate DACs and unless you want or need certain esoteric features then you don't need to spend much on a separate DAC. The audio DAC is a commodity.

 

[ex audiophile]

Thanks JJB70, appreciate it. @dkinric I don't know why my date of joining has anything to do with my question, or why you would think it was "trolling", I'm not even sure what that is. I feel like I should apologize for not knowing what you think I should know. I have avoided forums for this type of attitude and I thought this site might be different. I did feel strong enough about Amir's work that I contributed to the site. You?

 

[dkinric]

Thanks JJB70, appreciate it. @dkinric I don't know why my date of joining has anything to do with my question, or why you would think it was "trolling", I'm not even sure what that is. I feel like I should apologize for not knowing what you think I should know. I have avoided forums for this type of attitude and I thought this site might be different. I did feel strong enough about Amir's work that I contributed to the site. You?

No offense nor bad attitude intended. It's a little bit of an odd (basic) question from someone who has been here for so long. Everyone who is sincere and open minded is welcome!

 

[BDWoody]

I believe that Amir has stated that DACs are not all that important in the audio chain, yet there are dozens of reviews and countless pages written on their merits and weaknesses. Why would that be if all you need is a basic quality DAC in your system? I was going to add an AHB2 to my surround system for the mains, and the Benchmark advisor encourage me to put a high quality DAC, like their Benchmark, between my Anthem AVM 60 and the AHB2 to ensure the best results. And that would have required a new streaming source, blah blah.
So I'm confused by the relative importance of this component, I have come to believe that it is the speakers and the room that are responsible for most of the sound, requiring only basic but quality electronics to sound their best.

I think most are right there with you. The DAC is certainly important, but finding a competent one is no longer quite as random as it used to be.
Transparent functionality is getting cheaper and cheaper.

Yep...put the time into the speaker/Room...that's a difference you can hear.

 

[flowjm]

Am I correct in thinking that your question might be rephrased as "why does this site focus so much on DAC measurements, when it's now relatively easy and inexpensive to obtain one that is audibly transparent? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to focus more on power amplifiers and speakers, many of which are imperfect to a more audible degree"?

 

[Killingbeans]

@Bombadil The rising popularity of this place has given an influx of people who try to burn it down in "clever" ways.

It makes some of us a little jumpy/trigger happy

 

[dkinric]

@Bombadil The rising popularity of this place has given an influx of people who try to burn it down in "clever" ways.

It makes some of us a little jumpy/trigger happy

Exactly

 

[Xulonn]

Good analogies are difficult to create, but I think that staple of male obsession - the sports car (or sports sedan) - can be used here. The new Kia Stinger was engineered by former BMW M Vice President of Engineering Albert Bierman, and is receiving excellent reviews for both styling and performance.

Kia is noted for their family-friendly and rather pedestrian automobiles and SUVs - not for sports cars. However, the Stinger breaks that mold and jumps into a new market segment (for them) with an exceptional product that matches - and often surpasses - the handling and street and track performance of many revered marques - including Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, and even the V8 Mustang Bullitt GT.

The creation of the excellent Kia Stinger is a result of really good engineering and a commitment by a company to "do it right." The same is true in the DAC segment of audio technology. Even if a company has little experience in high performance DACs, if they commit to making a truly excellent product, and hire a good digital electronics engineer instead of a self-educated, bloated ego audio hobbyist, then good, reasonably priced products can be the result. For both sports cars and DACs, prospective customers can chose from a variety of "products that test well," based on product features and appearance. So yes, DACs are very important, but complex subjective preferences - or a much higher price tag - will most often not contribute to better audible performance.

At the other end of the car/SUV spectrum we can consider this AutoGuide.com summary about a really bad. This product reminds me of some of the offerings from so-called "high-end" audio manufacturers like PS Audio - and is one of the harshest auto reviews I have ever seen. Fascinating how product reviewers (including Amir) can "tell it like it is" when they are not in bed with revenue-producing advertisers!

The Lincoln MKT

takes every consistent theme from this list and balls them up into one seriously revolting product. Ugly? Check. Out of date? You bet. Overpriced? Yes. Bad in-car technology? Definitely. The 3.5-liter EcoBoost V6 and dated six-speed automatic transmission also return a rather dismal 16 MPG city and 24 MPG highway. We can’t even believe this is even on sale anymore – let alone for $44,000. We truly pity the poor soul that strolls into a Lincoln dealer over the next year and spends their hard earned cash on one of these.

 

[Neddy]

I think he's asking a very good high level question, namely, how much does each component in a (streamed, or networked) system actually contribute to the overall experience, OR, how much weight/scrutiny should be placed on each components cost/benefit?
(I may have missed more detailed threads on this topic here.)
But if a speaker has, say, 10% THD, amp 0.1%, preamp 0.1, and DAC 0.0001%, which is the most critical component to upgrade/invest in?
I've been taking the approach of 'must have a clean source first and foremost', but do sometimes wonder if it's great performance is just lost downstream.
(I guess I'll find out soon enough when I receive my OktoDAC, an upgrade from a perhaps 1% THD DAC?)
So, in more 'scientific' terms, how do the THD+SN (etc) figures add up as summed over multiple components?
(Is it multiplicative, or additive?)

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think he's asking a very good high level question, namely, how much does each component in a (streamed, or networked) system actually contribute to the overall experience, OR, how much weight/scrutiny should be placed on each components cost/benefit?
(I may have missed more detailed threads on this topic here.)
But if a speaker has, say, 10% THD, amp 0.1%, preamp 0.1, and DAC 0.0001%, which is the most critical component to upgrade/invest in?
I've been taking the approach of 'must have a clean source first and foremost', but do sometimes wonder if it's great performance is just lost downstream.
(I guess I'll find out soon enough when I receive my OktoDAC, an upgrade from a perhaps 1% THD DAC?)
So, in more 'scientific' terms, how do the THD+SN (etc) figures add up as summed over multiple components?
(Is it multiplicative, or additive?)

THD may or may not be additive. Depends upon the relative phase, and which harmonics. Worst case it is additive. But some components, like speakers, are mostly 2nd and 3rd harmonic, while others have a long string of harmonics. So 1% and 1% might become 2% or it might become 1.1%. Just as crude examples.

SN is not directly additive. And if one component is several db worse than all the rest it will essentially set the level of noise problems. One also needs to look at noise profiles over frequency instead of just one number.

FR is pretty much additive. A half db and another half db combine for 1 db. Or if one is up and the other down cancel out to flat response.

 

[jasonk]

I am new here, but not to digital audio (or digital anything)

Surely the only important things in digital audio are the quality of the digitising and the quality of the conversion back to audio. Nothing inbetween can affect it. After all it is the DAC which feeds the audio to your amp. So yes, it is as important as your receiver, deck, CD etc

 

[ex audiophile]

hello Jason, welcome. What I've taken from this discussion is that DACs are a crucial element of digital audio but, and it's a big but, there are many reasonably priced DACs that will produce results indistinguishable from those that are much more expensive. The latter may have slightly better numbers when measured but the differences are inaudible. The wise audiophile would therefore take the money saved on the DAC to invest in better speakers or become more knowledgeable with regard to room eq.

 

[sergeauckland]

I am new here, but not to digital audio (or digital anything)

Surely the only important things in digital audio are the quality of the digitising and the quality of the conversion back to audio. Nothing inbetween can affect it. After all it is the DAC which feeds the audio to your amp. So yes, it is as important as your receiver, deck, CD etc

Which to me, these days, is pretty unimportant. Almost anything electronic will be quite Good Enough for transparency, so whatever meets the looks, budget, facilities specification will do nicely.
In the case of DACs, I don't have any separate DACs, I just use whatever's already in my CD player, Squeezebox, laptop, tablet and DSP crossover.

S

 

[jasonk]

Thanks Bombadil

I agree with you regarding the reasonably priced DACs as I am sure that 'diminishing returns' applies as much to DACs as most other euipment

btw, What are you leaning on in your picture?

 

[BDWoody]

I am new here, but not to digital audio (or digital anything)

Surely the only important things in digital audio are the quality of the digitising and the quality of the conversion back to audio. Nothing inbetween can affect it. After all it is the DAC which feeds the audio to your amp. So yes, it is as important as your receiver, deck, CD etc

The DAC feeds an electrical signal to your amp, it isn't audio yet...its got to get to the speakers before it starts transferring that energy to something that moves and makes a soundwave. The actual A/D and D/A conversion process has been pretty well sorted for a couple of decades now...

It's certainly no less important than any other part of that process, but that doesn't mean it isn't effectively a commodity.

 

[ex audiophile]

Thanks Bombadil

I agree with you regarding the reasonably priced DACs as I am sure that 'diminishing returns' applies as much to DACs as most other euipment

btw, What are you leaning on in your picture?

It's a sawstop router table. after retiring from veterinary orthopedics i naturally gravitated to woodworking. i prefer wood to bone as wood does not bleed or get infected lol

 

[jasonk]

The DAC feeds an electrical signal to your amp, it isn't audio yet..

Hiya BDWoody

Is that not true of everything you input to the amp?

 

[BDWoody]

Hiya BDWoody

Is that not true of everything you input to the amp?

Sure. That's why each component should be evaluated to see whether its doing its job properly.
For DAC's, that's relatively simple, and it is uncommon to find one that is so broken as to be an audible issue. Choices between them would be functional, not so much audible.

Did I imply otherwise?