Are active speakers the future? (YouTube series)

[Sokel]

Many blanket statements who should make engineers have a headache, not us consumers.

Everything boils down to each implementation and choices.

Take two nice but entirely different speakers as an example, Genelec 8361A and Neumman KH420.
Both really nice though through different paths, one is DSP'd, etc, the other analog.

It's the end result that matters, just like with amp's classes.

 

[Audionaut]

Should those true active speakers also integrate software for every streaming service or room correction? Smartphone vendors now -finally!- provide longer software support windows... but those also tap out after 5 to (max) 7 years or so (used to be two or three). If I accuse Microsoft of being self-serving when they discontinue support for my $3k 2018-edition desktop computer with high end components... wouldn't I be even more upset if that happens to $7k+ active speakers?

But that’s a flawed comparison.
If you have a passive speaker, you buy it and it always has the same settings because it uses a passive crossover.
With an active speaker, in some cases you have a few parameters that you can adjust.

What you described is more like an active speaker with a built-in entertainment system—as if, for example, a WiiM Ultra were included.

Something like that is more of a tightly integrated system with all the drawbacks it entails, because if one component is no longer supported or breaks down, you’ve got a problem.

 

[Audionaut]

I see no reason why such a system could not include DSP supporting most features you find in multi-amp speakers. DSP is cheap today and a combination of simple passive x-over with digital EQ could be a good solution when it comes to cost/performance ratio.

I can think of plenty of reasons why that would be a pretty bad idea in high-quality speakers. You lose the benefits of directly driving the drivers, and—if done right—passive crossover components are now almost more expensive for the manufacturer than an active solution.

In any case, I don’t know of a single high-quality implementation of your proposed solution on the market. In the budget segment of computer accessories, however, this has been the standard practice for years. A cheap solution for cheap sound.

 

[john61ct]

>> systems marketed as “active” in this configuration are nothing but false advertising and a rip-off for consumers

If you use "system" to mean an integrated installation of all the components, maybe?

But "Active Speakers" as a product category were around long before DSP went mainstream, actual vocabulary definitions may change with the trends but "false advertising and a rip-off for consumers" is overstating the case.

Same with "Active Crossovers", those include analog electronics.

"DSP based" crossovers is precise.

As is, for an overall system description "fully active is the way to go" as opposed to

"my 8-enclosure system is fully active except for the front main pair".

a combination of simple passive x-over with digital EQ could be a good solution when it comes to cost/performance ratio.

ABSO F'in LUTELY

With 12+ endpoint channels going all-DSP is just crazy pricey, one proprietary box costing more than all the other components put together.

I am going for "Modularised DSP", starting out testing a "DSP only where needed" approach.

Analog crossovers, only using DSP to treat issues the analog system cannot fix

If I have Main L/R comprised of a mix 2- 3-way speakers + midbass couplers + stereo trueSubs all co-located Those subs easily switched to mono if that turns out to test better, there are also other trueSubs already in mono thus freely placed, can be treated as a single sub-group in the DSP...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The processing that applies only to one enclosure (e.g. bass extension, driver EQ, limiter drivers protection) may be combined with multi-box crossover functions, or maybe leave the FR magnitude side to analog, just use DSP there if timing delays / phase alignment tuning is required.

Ad-hoc user EQ tone controls, loudness compensation tied to volume is 100% different from Room compensation

IMO neither having anything to do with an "Active Speaker". All my single-driver enclosures have no built-in electronics, but all are active.

> I would avoid any SW that requires updates to keep working.

Step further, all my software is "open" in the sense that any speaker enclosure can be swapped out completely, and the software does not, only minor configuration changes are needed - at the node that controls its filters, and tweaking the system-level DRC

 

[illusonic]

I can think of plenty of reasons why that would be a pretty bad idea in high-quality speakers. You lose the benefits of directly driving the drivers, and—if done right—passive crossover components are now almost more expensive for the manufacturer than an active solution.

In any case, I don’t know of a single high-quality implementation of your proposed solution on the market. In the budget segment of computer accessories, however, this has been the standard practice for years. A cheap solution for cheap sound.

As I wrote, it's for best cost/performance ratio, not ultimate performance. See for example Teufel bestsellers and a similar concept from Nubert. It's for a reason that their most cost-sensitive systems are designed this way.

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What you described is more like an active speaker with a built-in entertainment system—as if, for example, a WiiM Ultra were included.

Something like that is more of a tightly integrated system with all the drawbacks it entails, because if one component is no longer supported or breaks down, you’ve got a problem.

Take for example D&D 6/8c. They include room EQ, streaming and Bacch filters in >10k speakers. Their electronics look like a combination of modules sourced from various suppliers. Not particularly confidence-inspiring from HW perspective alone. And at least streaming services require regular SW updates to keep working. In this price-class I expect >20 years service life. It's questionable if they can support their products this long.

There are positive examples like Linn who still provide regular SW updates and repair service for 20 year old devices. But they have full control over the complete product as they developed HW and SW in house. Generally, streaming and room EQ are much better served even today by specialist companies like Eversolo and MiniDSP.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Apparently PS Audio are working on active speakers too, and claims it will be better than passive according to this video.

 

[Multiway]

I evolved from single amp, passive XOs powering a 5 way horn system, to 5 amps with passive XOs, to IIR DSP 4/5 way active, to 4 way DSP using FIR.

Bringing REW and rePhase into the equation, Vector averages of multiple listening position measurements, psychoacoustic averages, individual driver filter frequency and phase control, has certainly added even more.

As a DIYer, at each change what I could achieve leapt forward!

Perhaps self learning FIR speakers will be a thing of the future for everyman, or woman.
Edit: and I don't mean Wiim Pro etc with your phone measuring or miniDSP flex (too few taps).

Problem is, the money in this business is in older (= more well off) guys whose romanticism about how something should sound was set back when they were 18, offset by their deteriorating hearing and an industry that exploits these things almost perfectly.

So there is a huge lag in what's possible and what's perceived as marketable and cash rich.
Why stop milking the cow, or should that be the bull?

 

[thcdru2k]

Full DSP/FIR per-driver control has real advantages (phase accuracy, multi-seat consistency, full-band correction).
Tradeoff is complexity, system overhead, and aesthetics vs simplicity and integration.

 

[terryforsythe]

Responding to the title of the thread, for me, YES. I don't foresee myself ever again owning passive speakers.

 

[Platypus20]

I hope not, every one I’ve ever seen has failed or hissed terribly

 

[Flaesh]

Flex8 and 8 V3 channels now, even the tweeters (DCX464) have almost no hiss. No hiss at 2-6 meters.
There used to be noticeable hissing with 4x10HD and various amplifiers.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

It's questionable if they can support their products this long.

why is this questionable to you? It isn't questionable to me

 

[dfuller]

I, personally, see no point to passive speakers in this day and age.

I hope not, every one I’ve ever seen has failed or hissed terribly

Buy cheap things, get cheap results.

 

[Platypus20]

Meridians are not cheap

 

[pablolie]

If Einstein had to provide a quote for audio, it'd probably be "Make great-performing products as cheap as possible... but not cheaper than that."

 

[MattHooper]

Ukiro Music is a new Youtube channel / Youtuber from Sweden, and I don't know exactly what he does that works, but I really like his dry delivery and no-nonsense style. His reviews are subjective in nature, but he also presents factual information in a very good way. I also think the way he describes music and listening impressions work well.

He has just reviewed our Sigberg Audio Saranna speakers in his "Are Active Speakers The Future?" series, and as such I'm obviously not objective in thinking this is interesting. But I thought it was worth to share here since this is part 3 in the series. The first two were Kii Three and Dutch&Dutch 8C which are both popular here on ASR, and part 4 (coming in about a month) is the Grimm Audio LS1 with subs.

Which mean you'll get four (relatively speaking) expensive active speakers that many may find comparable, reviewed in the same style and by the same reviewer. Something I assume will be interesting to many here. He isn't really comparing them but rather sharing his impressions of each individually to perhaps help you understand what may be the right choice for you.

For those who feel subjective reviews have no relevance or value whatsoever, you are of course free to ignore these videos.

Kii Three Review (~40 minutes):

Dutch&Dutch 8C Review (~22 minutes):

Sigberg Audio Saranna Review (~40 minutes):

Looks like this guy just got a job doing reviews for Stereophile magazine.
I look forward to reading some of his reviews, cause I think he’s really good. (I have a subscription…. It’s so darn cheap. I figured might as well.)

 

[DatSpeakerTho]

I gladly handed all my passive xover components off to a friend never to see them again. From a builders perspective what a nightmare they are to work with.

It would take so long to wire everything up to test, try not to short things, remember any changes that I made, etc... and you have to do it all twice. Despite not having much experience with passive xovers, the whole process felt super dated.

Tossing a DSPi with a few cheap dacs gives me 8 out active speaker filtering for like 50 bucks. Of course you need amplifiers. Takes about 10 minutes to dial in perfect filtering that will sound better than the passive option. Plus you can use the filtering for any speaker you get.

 

[terryforsythe]

I hope not, every one I’ve ever seen has failed or hissed terribly

Meridians are not cheap

If you heard hissing, my bet is they went cheap on the electronics or poorly engineered them.

With my KEF LS60s I can just barely hear a bit of hiss if I put my ear right next to the tweeter, but it is not at all audible at 0.5m or greater, and certainly not audible at my listening position.

With my Elacs, which I modified to be active using Topping amplifiers pushing the midranges and tweeters, and a Hypex pushing the woofers, I can't hear any hissing at all, even when I put my ear right next to the tweeter.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Looks like this guy just got a job doing reviews for Stereophile magazine.
I look forward to reading some of his reviews, cause I think he’s really good. (I have a subscription…. It’s so darn cheap. I figured might as well.)

Yes he did. So the only downside of that is that it appears to be an exclusive deal, which means he can't do more video reviews for his own channel.

 

[Audionaut]

exclusive deal, which means he can't do more video reviews for his own channel.

Well, @MattHooper , now you know why the subscription was so darn cheap ...