Are active speakers the future? (YouTube series)

[john61ct]

Not yet finalized. To be discussed in another more appropriate thread.

Just trying to wrap my head around use of the term "active speakers".

So far I've got:

in the general sense, for an audience unfamiliar with crossovers, bi- tri- amping and DSP, "a speaker with power amplification included".

When the context is technical discussions along the above lines wrt modern gear, "a speaker with line-level DSP-based crossover included, and likely a separate amp per driver".

And even with passive speakers, the term "active system" may imply the above principles.

While "active crossovers" MIGHT imply them, or include analog gear instead if the context is vintage tech, especially with automotive audio tech.

 

[Chrispy]

Not yet finalized. To be discussed in another more appropriate thread.

Just trying to wrap my head around use of the term "active speakers".

So far I've got:

in the general sense, for an audience unfamiliar with crossovers, bi- tri- amping and DSP, "a speaker with power amplification included".

When the context is technical discussions along the above lines wrt modern gear, "a speaker with line-level DSP-based crossover included, and likely a separate amp per driver".

And even with passive speakers, the term "active system" may imply the above principles.

While "active crossovers" MIGHT imply them, or include analog gear instead if the context is vintage tech, especially with automotive audio tech.

Sounds about right. Better than trying to make sense of many objective audio descriptions otoh Could be an interesting thread, butthere might already be one existing otoh.

 

[Mort]

This might be as good as any other thread but you could also get a broader discussion going by making your question it's own thread.

in the general sense, for an audience unfamiliar with crossovers, bi- tri- amping and DSP, "a speaker with power amplification included".

tbh, if they don't know DSP or crossover, I am not sure that audience knows what power amplification means. Not arguing, just a thought.

 

[Chrispy]

This might be as good as any other thread but you could also get a broader discussion going by making your question it's own thread.


tbh, if they don't know DSP or crossover, I am not sure that audience knows what power amplification means. Not arguing, just a thought.

To me it's like many calling an integrated amp/receiver simply "amp"....definitions in audio aren't precise in many ways.

 

[john61ct]

I'm confused by the terms.

Exactly, hence my attempts at clarifying, sorry if tedious to some.

> Does Analog mean passive?

Analog crossovers can be passive components (capacitors and resistors and stuff), in which case usually (but not always) after the power amp.

There are passive crossovers that are designed to work at line level as well, some are very fine SQ but rarely used these days.

There are electronic but analog crossovers that ONLY work at line level (always before the power amp), separate devices, or built into amplifiers, which may or may not be built into active speakers (in the OG sense)

In the more modern sense, I'm inferring that "active design" and "active system" means DSP-oriented, basically because that's how bi- and tri- amp (each driver getting their own) crossovers are done nowadays.

Same with all those electronics being bundled into the speaker enclosure, thus implying the modern meaning of "active speaker" in a technical context.

I bet "active design with passive components" is just not a thing if "components" means crossover, seems contradictory to me.

I was making the additional point that so long as each driver is getting its own amp, active crossovers at line level (not necessarily DSP based), that is still an "active system" - even with passive speakers!

 

[DVDdoug]

Resistors, capacitors, and inductors are examples of passive components. They work without a power supply and they are used in both active and passive crossovers

A circuit made from 100% passive components (like the crossover in a regular passive speaker) is passive.

Tubes, transistors, MOSFETs, and ICs are examples of active components. They require a power supply.

A circuit that processes the signal through active devices is an active circuit.

You can't get amplification without active circuitry. And a lot of stuff is "easier" with active circuitry! There are "passive preamps" but they aren't really preamps since they can't amplify. They are a "control center", and the volume control can only attenuate.

I have an active analog crossover in one of my vehicles. It's tri-amped with separate amps for the subwoofer, mid-woofer, and tweeter.

 

[john61ct]

To me it's like many calling an integrated amp/receiver simply "amp"....definitions in audio aren't precise in many ways.

Well, precision helps communications. To me an "integrated amp" means things like source selection, volume control and other "preamp functions" are included.

Receiver implies the above PLUS at least some source aspects are included, like AVR format decoding or an AM/FM tuner.

I agree there are grey area examples, putting a gain knob on a bare power amp does not make it "integrated" except to purists that might want a bypass function...

 

[Chrispy]

Well, precision helps communications. To me an "integrated amp" means things like source selection, volume control and other "preamp functions" are included.

Receiver implies the above PLUS at least some source aspects are included, like AVR format decoding or an AM/FM tuner.

I agree there are grey area examples, putting a gain knob on a bare power amp does not make it "integrated" except to purists that might want a bypass function...

I really dislike when people term an integrated amp as if it is a power amp....and vice versa to an extent of course. Originally receiver meant some sort of built in radio tuner, today it's more an internet tuner. A strict integrated amp wouldn't have any built-in source IMHO. A gain knob on a power amp is more about gain matching to me, but....

 

[john61ct]

Yes, as an adjective the technical meaning changes. Modifying "component" and "circuit" and "crossover" the term Active is clear and precise.

Same with Passive, in all contexts with all referents.

Here I am clarifying my confusion over Active, when the referent is "speaker" and obviously the meaning of that phrase has changed and now depends on context.

To me "Active system" is also now more clear, and seems to only have meaning in the bi/tri amp context. I am grateful for your clarification that an active system does not necessarily mean active speakers.

I have an active analog crossover in one of my vehicles. It's tri-amped with separate amps for the subwoofer, mid-woofer, and tweeter.

 

[john61ct]

I really dislike when people term an integrated amp as if it is a power amp....and vice versa to an extent of course. Originally receiver meant some sort of built in radio tuner, today it's more an internet tuner. A strict integrated amp wouldn't have any built-in source IMHO. A gain knob on a power amp is more about gain matching to me, but....

I completely agree. Since dedicated preamps are so much less necessary these days, I can see why a big volume knob can be popular on a power amp, but I personally would usually set it and forget it.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I feel like we're complicating this more than we have to. The vast majority of active speakers today have built-in amplification and digital crossovers (DSP). And that is what people are typically referring to when talking about active speakers. Some high-end and/or studio/Pro-oriented gear may have these things in an external box due to the intention of in-wall mounting of the speakers or other reasons, but that doesn't change the inherent design concept.

What is the purpose of a more detailed definition unless we are talking about vintage gear and/or are trying to win some kind of argument about who has the most precise definition?

 

[john61ct]

built-in amplification and digital crossovers (DSP). And that is what people are typically referring to when talking about active speakers.

That is an answer to my question, not just the amp built in, but DSP crossover maybe other DSP functionality, you are saying that is a required part of the definition.

Exceptions and complications may not be common in this place and time, but personally I thought worth hashing them out. Maybe valuable to a few others who thought the OG definition was still relevant

 

[sigbergaudio]

That is an answer to my question, not just the amp built in, but DSP crossover maybe other DSP functionality, you are saying that is a required part of the definition.

I'm not saying that is the required part of the definition, I'm saying it naturally follows in a modern active speaker, regardless of what definition we conclude on. Any current active speaker is very likely to have DSP. I'm tempted to say they all have it, but I'm sure someone is able to dig up an exception, so I won't do that.

Exceptions and complications may not be common in this place and time, but personally I thought worth hashing them out. Maybe valuable to a few others who thought the OG definition was still relevant

For the sake of argument, I agree. But for practical purposes, an active speaker has built-in amplification and digital crossovers.

 

[Sokel]

has built-in amplification and digital crossovers.

Not necessarily (bold), many have analog el. crossovers, Neumann KH420 for example.

 

[john61ct]

Aha, google also gave me this list

ATC SCM series, PSI Audio, Dynaudio BM15A / BM6A, Focal Trio, PMC

some are perhaps only older instances

 

[sigbergaudio]

Not necessarily (bold), many have analog el. crossovers, Neumann KH420 for example.

Yes, apparently so. If I understand the block diagram correctly they seem to have line level, analog crossovers before the amplifiers.

 

[Sokel]

Yes, apparently so. If I understand the block diagram correctly they seem to have line level, analog crossovers before the amplifiers.

Yes.
But at the end of the day they do the same thing, filtering, either analog or digital.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Yes.

 

[john61ct]

Would such analog-based active speakers have decent timing adjustments? Is variable phase much more effective than simple 180° polarity flops? I've heard of "All-Pass filters" also.

From my reading I think problems in the time domain, that can't be ameliorated "enough" by adding subs and positioning, would be what would lead me to invest (down the road) in fulltime DSP.

One other pretty major issue I have is off-grid usage, especially for the thirsty components like power amps, would prefer to run directly off DC rather than using big / pricey / less efficient SW inverters.

So far in my research "active speakers" (by any definition) usually (always?) require AC power inputs?

Hence my awareness of the option if building an "active system" using passive speakers, as seems more common with gear oriented toward automotive use cases.

I guess the front LCR and surround boxen being 2-3 way passives makes it more "hybrid", really only the LF being active, midbass couplers and various trueSubs...

 

[Sokel]

Would such analog-based active speakers have decent timing adjustments? Is variable phase much more effective than simple 180° polarity flops? I've heard of "All-Pass filters" also.

From my reading I think problems in the time domain, that can't be ameliorated "enough" by adding subs and positioning, would be what would lead me to invest (down the road) in fulltime DSP.

One other pretty major issue I have is off-grid usage, especially for the thirsty components like power amps, would prefer to run directly off DC rather than using big / pricey / less efficient SW inverters.

So far in my research "active speakers" (by any definition) usually (always?) require AC power inputs?

Hence my awareness of the option if building an "active system" using passive speakers, as seems more common with gear oriented toward automotive use cases.

I guess the front LCR and surround boxen being 2-3 way passives makes it more "hybrid", really only the LF being active, midbass couplers and various trueSubs...

Digital ones are far more versatile and easy to use.
Analog ones can be easy as well (even the dead cheap pro-audio analog Behris have delay settings for example) .

The good thing about the analog ones is zero latency.

Here's a couple I have measured here:

Cheap analog electronic crossover

I've been playing lately with a very cheap analog 2-in/4-out analog crossover. Is somehow DIY but very easy to fix. To my surprise it measures very decently! (note that has been measured with the worst possible conditions,long cables soldered just to see,adapters,noisy PSU and by someone totally...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Marchand XM9 analog electronic crossover (short of) review

This is short of a review for the very old Marchand XM9 2-way crossover boards. It's a 30 years old design,probably discontinued and I got the unpopulated boards from a friend that kept them in a drawer with no use of them. Board looks like this: I used some different components,as LME...

www.audiosciencereview.com

They do pretty well, unlike the pro one at the end of one of the threads.