Are a dac and an headphone amplifier really worth it vs my phone ?

[MRC01]

... Maybe heresy round here, but see what fun you can get from a pair of Grados. The SR60 are the entry level and a different beast to the 650s.

The SR60 certainly are quite different from the 650 in every way. From an engineering perspective, they are inferior in every way to the 650: frequency response nowhere near flat and high distortion. The SR60 experience can range from "fun" to "un-listenable" depending on your attitude and expectations.

 

[Mocs123]

The 650's aren't the easiest to drive, so I say you might benefit from an amp, but I think you may find your best bang for your buck getting better source material. I'm not sure which one you are using but Spodify free tops out at 128kbs MP3 and Spodify premium tops out at 320kbs MP3. You might try a service that offers lossless audio formats such as FLAC - Qobiz, Tidal, Amazon Music HD, or Deezer.

If you do want to try an amp, don't spend a fortune as there are some good performers at decent prices.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Hi,

3 years ago I’ve decided to buy a good pair of headphones and I’ve discovered at the same time the obscur world of audiophiles.
At this time I was very enthusiastic about all the things that I could read and I finally bought a pair of Sennheiser HD-650 for a really good price and because everyone was saying that it needed a lot of power I also bought a Fiio A5 to use it with my phone (I hadn’t a lot of money to spend, my priority was a nice pair of headphones).
When all this package arrived I was surprised (and a little bit embarrassed) that my phone was perfectly capable of pushing these headphones, the fiio A5 didn’t change anything in the sound but it just aded more power (that’s what it’s designed for but I don’t need to listen to music at 130 db to appreciate it) and it was highly impractical... I also tried mp3 vs flac 16 bit and even 24 bit and once again i was a little embarrassed because i couldn’t tell any difference (I’m young and I’ve got all my hearing capabilities...) or if there is a difference I absolutely don’t care because I think that it is not worth all the money and effort vs spotify... (maybe with a better dac ???)

Since this time i listen to spotify with my Samsung S10e and my HD-650 almost every day and I’m perfectly fine with it, I’m always between 1/3 and 2/3 of the volume... and I think that the majority of the audiophiles are full of s _ _ _ (sorry)

But with the quarantine happening in Europe I dive back into this world and I’ve discovered this forum wich seems more serious and « scientific » than most.
My questions are the following :

1) If I buy a good dac (like Topping D50s) and a good headphone amp (like THX 887) will it make an easily noticeable difference in sound quality vs my phone or will it be same difference between mp3 and flac 24 bit ? As i said before i don’t care if that’s just a little difference barely noticeable with more power :-/

2) I would like to use spotify via my phone or my iPad wirelessly : if I use a bluetooth dac (like Fiio BTR5 or iFI Zen Blue), will it noticeably degrade the audio quality (spotify) vs a more classic dac ?

3) Fiio A5 vs Monoprice THX 887, same question : is the upgrade easily noticeable for my ears or is the THX 887 just an excessive amount of power and better curves in theory ?

I understand that my questions can look totally stupid for some people who care about every little differences they can hear whatever the cost (and I have absolutely no problem with that) but please keep in mind that I’ve never tried anything else than my phone and my Fiio A5 and I’m not interested in some minor upgrades

(please excuse me if my english is not perfect and for this long and stupid message)

Well designed amplifiers and DACs should sound almost the same as long as they match the specifications of what they feed into, and this should be generally be easier with headphones.

1. No it probably shouldn't make a difference, unless your phone is not able to drive your headphones (in which case it will make a difference).

2. Depends on the codec used in the bluetooth I guess?

3. No it perhaps won't be very noticeable. But you would have to set up a blind listening test if you really want an answer to that question.

And DACs should sound the same, if they are functioning correctly - but there are differences in terms of their connections, build quality and warranty policy. So look carefully at those things when you buy.

I think that the majority of the audiophiles are full of s _ _ _ (sorry)

That may be true - there are a lot of strange and superstitious beliefs among the "audiophile world", mainly to do with dampening vibrations, speaker wire, jitter, etc.

However, they generally as a group are listening to music on hi-fi systems with speakers, rather than being limited to headphones. Superstitious beliefs about headphone amps, are probably more coming from the younger generations on Reddit and YouTube, rather than the older strange world of audiophiles, who at least get to enjoy music on nice speakers.

 

[MRC01]

...
When all this package arrived I was surprised (and a little bit embarrassed) that my phone was perfectly capable of pushing these headphones, the fiio A5 didn’t change anything in the sound but it just aded more power ...

Whether a DAC and amp sound better, and how much better, depends on the phone Some are pretty good, others pretty bad. I recently measured my phone & tablet. Both have big enough deviations to be audible. It may be helpful to share this example.
http://mclements.net/blogWP/index.php/2020/04/14/phone-tablet-measurements/

Your phone might be better than the Galaxy Note 4 I measured. This is just to show how bad is the audio output of even what was a flagship phone.

These discrepancies are in the device's DAC and analog stage. If you connect its USB output to an external DAC, you bypass both and the phone can send the unmodified musical data bits, so you avoid these distortions. Note that all this doesn't even touch the more obvious issue of output voltage & power. The point here is not to assume that all phones have even half-decent sound quality. My old cassette deck had flatter frequency response!

 

[alius123]

To follow up and yes I understand this is an older post but was right in the same topic I’ve been trying to ask myself. For anyone that runs into this like I did, the following link is a good forum review of someone doing AB comparisons from an iPhone 5s to a hugo dac/amp and found very little differences that were very dependent on what song being played and only really discernible if using a switch toggle to quickly reference both.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/so-...mprove-iphone-output-some-experiments.854521/

 

[Haint]

To follow up and yes I understand this is an older post but was right in the same topic I’ve been trying to ask myself. For anyone that runs into this like I did, the following link is a good forum review of someone doing AB comparisons from an iPhone 5s to a hugo dac/amp and found very little differences that were very dependent on what song being played and only really discernible if using a switch toggle to quickly reference both.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/so-...mprove-iphone-output-some-experiments.854521/

Interesting considering the 5S is ancient (7 years old) and would be considered a midrange budget phone ($650) by today's standards. Certainly some of these modern $1000+ phones are well beyond its audio performance. Last I saw LG was devoting a lot of resources to their phone's DAC/Amp sections, not sure if that's still true for their current models.

 

[3125b]

The older Apple devices actually had pretty decent headphone outputs.
Some do to this day, the <300$ iPad 2018 I measured put out 1Vrms with about 1ohm output impedance.
Funnily enough the weakest Apple device I found was the iPod Touch 7. gen - the one device you'd expect the most from.

 

[Mike B]

I just took delivery of some ancient Klipsch Heresies. I am looking for a good deal on an amplifier. I had to hear them. I hooked them to my iPad. It does not "fill the room" but it was very listenable.

 

[Deleted member 19195]

Answer to all three questions: no

 

[Berwhale]

I figured that. There's a substance, can't remember it's name, like putty that sets but still flexes. Perfect for such fiddly cables and connections. I'll find it and update.

https://sugru.com/

 

[raif71]

It's been a journey for me in terms of mobile audio devices. I like to keep my handphone only to be used as a communication device and not for audio. I haven't bought new ones close to 10 years now. My last 2 handphones are used, first from my son and then from my wife when they bought new ones so hopefully you can see why I only use for communication from my handphone as they have been used quite a bit. Back to mobile audio....
I have through the years bought many DAPs but since my choice of headphones have high impedances, soon I was looking for mobile dac/amps to complement the DAPs. To cut the story short I have "settled" for a HibyR5 which is adequate in power to drive my high impedance headphones. My other DAPs still get some usage too ever since I explored iems which is much easier to drive.

 

[bobbooo]

Whether a DAC and amp sound better, and how much better, depends on the phone Some are pretty good, others pretty bad. I recently measured my phone & tablet. Both have big enough deviations to be audible. It may be helpful to share this example.
http://mclements.net/blogWP/index.php/2020/04/14/phone-tablet-measurements/

Your phone might be better than the Galaxy Note 4 I measured. This is just to show how bad is the audio output of even what was a flagship phone.

These discrepancies are in the device's DAC and analog stage. If you connect its USB output to an external DAC, you bypass both and the phone can send the unmodified musical data bits, so you avoid these distortions. Note that all this doesn't even touch the more obvious issue of output voltage & power. The point here is not to assume that all phones have even half-decent sound quality. My old cassette deck had flatter frequency response!

Your measurements are faulty. GSMArena has measured both the Galaxy Note 4 and your Galaxy Tab S and they show perfectly flat frequency responses. Anyway, they're 6-year old devices now, that few people will still be using. You'd be hard pressed to find a smartphone released in the last 5 years or so that does not have a flat frequency response or that adds any audible amount of distortion over a transducer's distortion.

 

[MRC01]

Your measurements are faulty. GSMArena has measured both the Galaxy Note 4 and your Galaxy Tab S and they show perfectly flat frequency responses. Anyway, they're 6-year old devices now, that few people will still be using. You'd be hard pressed to find a smartphone released in the last 5 years or so that does not have a flat frequency response or that adds any audible amount of distortion over a transducer's distortion.

My guess is that the measurements are correct, because I've measured other devices in the same way. I suspect this is a software problem. I run LineageOS on these devices, which replaces the audio firmware and settings. These devices may measure flat with their OEM version of Android from the manufacturer & carrier.

 

[bobbooo]

My guess is that the measurements are correct, because I've measured other devices in the same way. I suspect this is a software problem. I run LineageOS on these devices, which replaces the audio firmware and settings. These devices may measure flat with their OEM version of Android from the manufacturer & carrier.

They do indeed. LineageOS is seriously mucking up the audio path then.

 

[matts19]

When I got into audiophile I bought a bunch of headphones from a Koss to a Sennheiser and Fiio K5 Pro DAC/AMP combo. I always listened in ASIO mode on Windows (or using Macbook core audio). I never bothered to listen with my iPhone 8 Plus - until today. WTF, my iphone + lightning DAC/AMP dongle sounds way, way better than my dedicated DAC/AMP. I am hearing instruments that I never heard from songs that I listened 100 times. I only listen to FLAC files BTW - mp3 quality may not bring out these differences. Anyway, It makes me wonder whether my Fiio is a crappy one (though it was highly regarded everywhere I researched), or is the best one hiding in plain sight and these external DAC/AMP are scams ? Maybe if you shell out $1000+ for DAC+AMP you get awesome sound ? Well with my iPhone I get an awesome DAC/AMP for free.... this is shocking to say the least.

 

[shawnbaker830]

I have never tried these, but you can look for some other options here https://www.myamplifiers.com/en-ca/. They offer a wide range of amplifiers for quite reasonable prices.

 

[Robin L]

Hi,

3 years ago I’ve decided to buy a good pair of headphones and I’ve discovered at the same time the obscur world of audiophiles.
At this time I was very enthusiastic about all the things that I could read and I finally bought a pair of Sennheiser HD-650 for a really good price and because everyone was saying that it needed a lot of power I also bought a Fiio A5 to use it with my phone (I hadn’t a lot of money to spend, my priority was a nice pair of headphones).
When all this package arrived I was surprised (and a little bit embarrassed) that my phone was perfectly capable of pushing these headphones, the fiio A5 didn’t change anything in the sound but it just aded more power (that’s what it’s designed for but I don’t need to listen to music at 130 db to appreciate it) and it was highly impractical... I also tried mp3 vs flac 16 bit and even 24 bit and once again i was a little embarrassed because i couldn’t tell any difference (I’m young and I’ve got all my hearing capabilities...) or if there is a difference I absolutely don’t care because I think that it is not worth all the money and effort vs spotify... (maybe with a better dac ???)

Since this time i listen to spotify with my Samsung S10e and my HD-650 almost every day and I’m perfectly fine with it, I’m always between 1/3 and 2/3 of the volume... and I think that the majority of the audiophiles are full of s _ _ _ (sorry)

But with the quarantine happening in Europe I dive back into this world and I’ve discovered this forum wich seems more serious and « scientific » than most.
My questions are the following :

1) If I buy a good dac (like Topping D50s) and a good headphone amp (like THX 887) will it make an easily noticeable difference in sound quality vs my phone or will it be same difference between mp3 and flac 24 bit ? As i said before i don’t care if that’s just a little difference barely noticeable with more power :-/

2) I would like to use spotify via my phone or my iPad wirelessly : if I use a bluetooth dac (like Fiio BTR5 or iFI Zen Blue), will it noticeably degrade the audio quality (spotify) vs a more classic dac ?

3) Fiio A5 vs Monoprice THX 887, same question : is the upgrade easily noticeable for my ears or is the THX 887 just an excessive amount of power and better curves in theory ?

I understand that my questions can look totally stupid for some people who care about every little differences they can hear whatever the cost (and I have absolutely no problem with that) but please keep in mind that I’ve never tried anything else than my phone and my Fiio A5 and I’m not interested in some minor upgrades

(please excuse me if my english is not perfect and for this long and stupid message)

If you're happy with what you've got then you have it made. I like my Drop 6XX hooked into the Toppng EL30 combo more than through my Moto phones. I don't really like using my smartphone for music. Using the Topping amp enables me to eq the headphones, resulting in more and better bass. I've got a Fiio M3K DAP, too low a power for the 6XX 'phones, but great with AKG K371's, But if you're happy with what you got don't sweat it.

 

[sprellemannen]

My experience (I don't know about your headphones, though) : Probably not worth it.

 

[DeepFried]

If you listen at low levels or you have easy to drive headphones then sure, a decent phone can be perfectly adequate. For me my Pixel 3a cannot drive my HD600s to my normal listening level, especially for higher dynamic range music like classical. As for my DT770's, forget it.

As for DACs, i'm personally of the opinion that any properly implemented DAC will sound qualitatively identical to my ear.

 

[Durnik]

I cannot be happier when listening to my (easy to drive) Clears MG on a Realme X2 Pro plus wavelet (streaming from Tidal).
BTW I'm very surprised for how Wavelet can help to get very good audio from a lot of headphones. I mean, you can apply the automatic EQ for your model of headphones (if already measured) and change the stock sound signature to a one closer to the Harman target. And then, with that base sound, use the integrated EQ, bass control and other tools to fine tune it to your liking (I'm not particularly a Harman target lover, but it's a very good sound signature to start from before EQing).
I know that a lot of people is very purist regarding audio and won't even think about trying it, but if you have easy to drive phones and you are not fully happy with their signature (or if you listen to very different music genres that require different EQ settings to shine), I'd recommend to try it.
I would love to try this with my A&K SR25 DAP, but the EQ does not allow proper manual tuning to match Wavelet settings, and the app is not allowed to be installed into the particular and restrictive A&K system... This, plus the MGs having a relaxed signature that doesn't shine with all the music genres, has caused me to use the smartphone more than the DAP when on a portable setup and now all the music can sound fantastic, despite its genre.