Arcam AVR11 why sound better?

[Mr.PePe]

Hi Guys, Ladies , if we have some onboard,

Currently I am using Yamaha RXA 1070 AV receiver. When I bught it I compared to Marantz 6 and 7 series but Yamaha sounds for me more engagment.

Now I am searching for replacement for it. Why? By courious
Tested Arcam AVR11, Denon X4800, Onkyo RZ50, Yamaha 1070.


Quick question.
Why Arcam sounds better if it have such a worst measurments on ASR test (AVR10)?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Level matched to 0.1V or better.

 

[Jimbob54]

Why Arcam sounds better if it have such a worst measurments on ASR test (AVR10)?

Who says it does sound better ?

 

[peng]

Hi Guys, Ladies , if we have some onboard,

Currently I am using Yamaha RXA 1070 AV receiver. When I bught it I compared to Marantz 6 and 7 series but Yamaha sounds for me more engagment.

Now I am searching for replacement for it. Why? By courious
Tested Arcam AVR11, Denon X4800, Onkyo RZ50, Yamaha 1070.


Quick question.
Why Arcam sounds better if it have such a worst measurments on ASR test (AVR10)?

I doubt it does, if compared on apple to apple basis. Otherwise a lot more people would have been choosing Arcam lol.

 

[truwarrior22]

Hi Guys, Ladies , if we have some onboard,

Currently I am using Yamaha RXA 1070 AV receiver. When I bught it I compared to Marantz 6 and 7 series but Yamaha sounds for me more engagment.

Now I am searching for replacement for it. Why? By courious
Tested Arcam AVR11, Denon X4800, Onkyo RZ50, Yamaha 1070.


Quick question.
Why Arcam sounds better if it have such a worst measurments on ASR test (AVR10)?

What are you noticing that sounds better? I like Arcam better as well, but haven’t done extensive side my side testing. Compared to my previous SR8015, my AV40 seems to sound more like I expect it to sound though both are are the some what warm side with the SR8015 being a touch warmer.

 

[Jim Taylor]

What are you noticing that sounds better? I like Arcam better as well, but haven’t done extensive side my side testing. Compared to my previous SR8015, my AV40 seems to sound more like I expect it to sound though both are are the some what warm side with the SR8015 being a touch warmer.

If you haven't done a double-blind test, properly set up and controlled, sonic impressions mean nothing.

... and they mean nothing because of these ...

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

... which work because of this ...

Cognitive Shortcuts — Navigating Challenging Dialogue

So I have a question for you: Would you rather go for a leisurely walk on a flat paved path or would you rather bushwhack your way through new and uncharted territory? For me, the answer depends on the day. It depends on how much energy I have, how much time I have, and what I anticipate the rewa

ncdsolution.com

... and employ these ...

Tomorrow Bio 4.0

www.tomorrow.bio

... whgich, BTW, cannot be turned on or off; they work full-time.

Jim

 

[Mr.PePe]

Who says it does sound better ?

I've made a test. As mentioned in first post.

 

[Mr.PePe]

I doubt it does, if compared on apple to apple basis. Otherwise a lot more people would have been choosing Arcam lol.

Not exactly. Arcam is much more expensive. But it does. Sound from Japan AVR is detailed and punchy while on Arcam there is much more sound in sound.

 

[Mr.PePe]

What are you noticing that sounds better? I like Arcam better as well, but haven’t done extensive side my side testing. Compared to my previous SR8015, my AV40 seems to sound more like I expect it to sound though both are are the some what warm side with the SR8015 being a touch warmer.

Compare to Marantz is not borring. Compare to Yamaha has less hi tones with the same information. Compare to Denon has better control on sound and powerfull bass extension.

 

[Mr.PePe]

If you haven't done a double-blind test, properly set up and controlled, sonic impressions mean nothing.

... and they mean nothing because of these ...

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

... which work because of this ...

Cognitive Shortcuts — Navigating Challenging Dialogue

So I have a question for you: Would you rather go for a leisurely walk on a flat paved path or would you rather bushwhack your way through new and uncharted territory? For me, the answer depends on the day. It depends on how much energy I have, how much time I have, and what I anticipate the rewa

ncdsolution.com

... and employ these ...

Tomorrow Bio 4.0

www.tomorrow.bio

... whgich, BTW, cannot be turned on or off; they work full-time.

Jim

I do not need blind test here. If I test on couple of examples songs and movies and diffrence is not on border line. But huge. It's enought for me. Just wonder why if ASR test shows something diffrent.

 

[Jimbob54]

I've made a test. As mentioned in first post.

You said you tested the avr11. Then asked about measurements for the avr10.

 

[peng]

Just wonder why if ASR test shows something diffrent.

ASR tests are based on objective, verifiable facts, science based. Yours are obviously subjective, based on your own perception, not measurable or verifiable at all, by others. You believe what you believe, I doubt any one here could convenience you otherwise. That's why, as simple as that..

 

[DVDdoug]

I do not need blind test here. If I test on couple of examples songs and movies and diffrence is not on border line. But huge. It's enought for me.

There COULD be differences due to EQ/tone controls/room correction, or different bass management/subwoofer settings, etc.

But, lots of people hear a "huge difference" and then "fail" a proper scientific, blind, level-matched ABX test. ABX tests can be humbling!

Non-scientific, not-engineering, non-specific terms like "engagement', "detailed", "punchy", etc., are also suspicious.

 

[popej]

There COULD be differences due to EQ/tone controls/room correction, or different bass management/subwoofer settings, etc.

Exactly. We choose AVR because of these features an then turn off them all, to make test or measurement possible.

Would be nice to see REW characteristics in MLP with all features on. As for ABX, maybe dummy head recordings with some postprocessing to match levels?

 

[peng]

There COULD be differences due to EQ/tone controls/room correction, or different bass management/subwoofer settings, etc.

But, lots of people hear a "huge difference" and then "fail" a proper scientific, blind, level-matched ABX test. ABX tests can be humbling!

Non-scientific, not-engineering, non-specific terms like "engagement', "detailed", "punchy", etc., are also suspicious.

Yeah, those who reported "huge difference" either heard it for potential reasons you cited, or they somehow didn't apply some sort of logical thinking so instead of asking about why, they should either accept what they heard without questioning, or starting questioning if their objectivity, i.e. effects of bias.

So, just out of curiosity, I sample a few customer reviews on the OP's subject AVR11 from the Crutchfield.com customer reviews, and the following probably tell us something obvious, that while they all feel good about what they bought, opinions varies. Again, that's expected.

customer 1:
Honestly, nothing special. I primarily bought this for music (not home theater). I have a few cheaper receivers and the music sounds just as good. I prefer the sound of Marantz...but in the end it is just personal preference.

Customer 2:
Really nice upgrade from an older Marantz SR6005. Wanted something a little more musical. AVR11 sounds fantastic, very happy with the improvement!!!


Customer 3:
a great receiver . It sound very natural .

To me, Customer 3's "natural" would be what I prefer, but then again, it's just his/her perception, to others who also "go by their ears" might say it isn't "natural" lol..

One can do the same by sampling Denon, Yamaha, Anthem, NAD and can expect similar variety of assessments based on users subjective reviews.

By the way, one BB customer reported that the AVR11's excellent sound quality, describing it as clear and bright. That, versus truwarrier22's reported "warm" sound, so much for diversity haha.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I do not need blind test here. If I test on couple of examples songs and movies and diffrence is not on border line. But huge. It's enought for me. Just wonder why if ASR test shows something diffrent.

The fact that "ASR shows something different" is the reason that you DO need to undergo a double-blind test.

If you undergo a rigorously controlled DBT, and produce statistically valid results that show you can recognize a difference, then we can go on from there. Until then, you're just another subjectivist who doesn't want to read the material that was posted. I didn't post those links in order to argue; they were posted because they contain a great deal about how human beings process information ... including auditory information. They are there to help you understand the differences between sensory information (emotional, uncalibrated and unreproducible) and scientific information (dispassionate, calibrated and reproducible).

Jim

 

[Jimbob54]

For the avoidance of doubt here- OP has done listening tests on 4 AVRs, one of which is the Arcam AVR11

They then ask why, if the Arcam AVR10 measures so badly here , do they think the AVR11 sounds the best of the bunch they "tested"?

It needs pointing out that the AVR11 has not been tested here, The AVR10 has and got mauled https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/arcam-avr10-review.13671/

I am unsure as to why the OP is trying to seek explanations for listening preferences for the AVR11 by referencing the (poor) measurements of an entirely different Arcam AVR unless I am missing something.

As for the methodology for said "testing"- have at it folks.

 

[Mr.PePe]

You said you tested the avr11. Then asked about measurements for the avr10.

"Tested Arcam AVR11, Denon X4800, Onkyo RZ50, Yamaha 1070."
Questioning why AVR10 from those has worst measurment but sound much better

ASR tests are based on objective, verifiable facts, science based. Yours are obviously subjective, based on your own perception, not measurable or verifiable at all, by others. You believe what you believe, I doubt any one here could convenience you otherwise. That's why, as simple as that..

What if there were no test than?
What kind of equipment would be chosen? Who from blind test before reading the measurment point "better" product?

It needs pointing out that the AVR11 has not been tested here, The AVR10 has and got mauled

I've heard that diff is only on HDMI. Would be suprised if not.

 

[MAB]

Questioning why AVR10 from those has worst measurment but sound much better

Maybe you are stuck in a world where good things are in fact:

An upside-down universe where amps must be:

The most logical explanation at this point!

 

[peng]

What if there were no test than?
What kind of equipment would be chosen? Who from blind test before reading the measurment point "better" product?

Great point! There are usually tests done on comparable models, in this case the AVR10 is the closest. Based on the ASR test results, I would say the AVR10 would sound transparent as well, and doubt anyone could tell a difference if comparing it to the AVR11, or the best Denon, Yamaha, Marantz AVR in double blind test using no DSP, such as in direct/pure direct mode and not driven anywhere close to their clipping point.

If there are absolutely no available credible tests with measurements, then I would just compare the audio specifications and to a large extent, the feature set. Room correction would be a key factor for me as it has the most impact on audio quality, given that AVRs at the level of Arcam's are going to be mostly transparent anyway. In this case, Arcam has an edge as they now usually comes with Dirac Live, Denon/Marantz can have Dirac Live as well, but then you have to add the license fees to the cost, but they do come with Audyssey that is really good too.

I understand lots of people believe in even AVRs at the level of the AVR10/11 having different "sound" but in reality that's mostly due to reasons mentioned so far on this thread, not the hardware itself.

I have done enough blind tests myself so I really don't feel the need any more, again, specs are good enough for me, not sure about you though, and I would emphasize that to compare specs, you have to know how to interpret them properly.