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Arcam AVR10 Review

maty

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We would hope so. The Audio.com.pl measurements don't show big differences between the X8500 and lower end amps.

Use Google Translate
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/wzmacniacze-a-v/2975-denon-avc-x8500h
1w SNR 80
Dynamic Range 103

vs.

Marantz NR1510
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3147-marantz-nr1510#laboratory
1W SNR 83
Dynamic Range 102

Marantz SR5011
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/2718-marantz-sr5011#laboratory
1W SNR 78
Dynamic Range 99

But hard to know how they're measuring those numbers.

Some of us (Peng and I) have long doubted the measurements of the amplifiers in that Polish magazine, especially if they are AV.

Months ago I sent them an email commenting on it, with links. I am still waiting for an answer :confused:
 

peng

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We would hope so. The Audio.com.pl measurements don't show big differences between the X8500 and lower end amps.

Use Google Translate
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/wzmacniacze-a-v/2975-denon-avc-x8500h
1w SNR 80
Dynamic Range 103

a) They did not test the preamp mode.
b) Imo, their test/measurement protocol are obviously different, though to be fair, I have no idea what differences it would necessarily make. Based just on gut feeling, I would only trust such kind of measurements by Audioholics, ASR, and HTHF, but not Audio.com.pl, that's just me and I could be totally wrong. I just get skeptical if I don't know about the reviewer's academic qualifications and/or relevant experience/credentials, the test equipment and the test/measurement protocols/procedures.
 

SimpleTheater

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It seems the more effective the included room correction is, the more the manufacturer slacks on the hardware performance.
When looking at the number of posts on the NAD review saying in essence "I'll take the [x product] with Dirac over a better performing product without Dirac", I think you know why a manufacturer may slack on hardware performance.

I'm not saying the argument above is right or wrong, but if my user base only cares about # of channels and Dirac, why not give them $100 hardware performance, pocket the difference and they're still happy.
 

GXAlan

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a) They did not test the preamp mode.
b) Imo, their test/measurement protocol are obviously different, though to be fair, I have no idea what differences it would necessarily make. Based just on gut feeling, I would only trust such kind of measurements by Audioholics, ASR, and HTHF, but not Audio.com.pl, that's just me and I could be totally wrong.

I'm on the page that science is science. It's just the test/measurement protocol.

I did look at the compilation of their 1W SNR.

SNR @ 1W
Accuphase A250 = 112 dB
Mark Levinson 532H = 105 dB
Benchmark AHB2 = 96 dB (Stereophile's measurements)
Marantz PM7005 = 94 dB
Pass XA60 = 91 dB
Krell EVO222 = 90 dB
Marantz PM8006 = 90 dB
----------------
Denon PMA-800NE = 88 dB
Marantz HD-AMP1 = 88 dB
Yamaha S1100 = 88 dB
Pass INT60 = 88 dB
Parasound JC1+ = 87 dB (Stereophile's Measurement)
Accuphase P4200 = 87 dB
Accuphase E370 = 85 dB
Mark Levinson 585 = 84 dB
Cambridge Edge A = 84 dB
Cambridge CXA80 = 84 dB
Devialet 400 = 82 dB
Anthem STR = 81 dB
AVR-X8500h = 80 dB

NAD M10 = 80 dB
----------------
Krell S300i = 76 dB

Devialet 240 = 75 dB
Arcam SA10 = 74 dB (? maybe similar to AVR10)
Devialet 140 = 71 dB
NAD D7050 = 71 dB (worse than ASR's #'s)
NAD M32 = 70 dB
----------------
Lyngdorf TDAI3400 = 62 dB (@amirm measured 60.7 dB at 5W)
Technics SU-G30 = 61 dB
Denon PMA-60 = 57 dB
 

peng

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And...... another one bites the dust.

I'm tempted to send in my Yamaha A2070 to see if it would measure better than the A1080 that was measured here earlier. It supposedly has a better DAC and a slightly beefier amp. And supposedly the A20xx/A30xx series are built to a higher standard than everything else. But, I don't want to live without my only source for music right now :) Maybe someday.

According to their website, the 1070/80 and 2070/80 have the same ES9007 (seems same as the 9006). Only the 3070/80 have the better ES9026 pro. The vol control ICs are the same too, so I wouldn't expect the pre-out measurements to be much better, may be slightly better in terms of higher output voltage. In previous/recent AH measurements, Yamaha's pre outs measured well at low voltage but not at higher level pass 1.2-1.5 V, just like D+M's but worse in the sense that they usually got much worse/like shutting down at just a little higher than 2 V. At least D+Ms would go much higher except for the more demand continuous sweep.
 

peng

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I'm on the page that science is science. It's just the test/measurement protocol.

I did look at the compilation of their 1W SNR.

SNR @ 1W
Accuphase A250 = 112 dB
Mark Levinson 532H = 105 dB
Benchmark AHB2 = 96 dB (Stereophile's measurements)
Marantz PM7005 = 94 dB
Pass XA60 = 91 dB
Krell EVO222 = 90 dB
Marantz PM8006 = 90 dB
----------------
Denon PMA-800NE = 88 dB
Marantz HD-AMP1 = 88 dB
Yamaha S1100 = 88 dB
Pass INT60 = 88 dB
Parasound JC1+ = 87 dB (Stereophile's Measurement)
Accuphase P4200 = 87 dB
Accuphase E370 = 85 dB
Mark Levinson 585 = 84 dB
Cambridge Edge A = 84 dB
Cambridge CXA80 = 84 dB
Devialet 400 = 82 dB
Anthem STR = 81 dB
AVR-X8500h = 80 dB

NAD M10 = 80 dB
----------------
Krell S300i = 76 dB

Devialet 240 = 75 dB
Arcam SA10 = 74 dB (? maybe similar to AVR10)
Devialet 140 = 71 dB
NAD D7050 = 71 dB (worse than ASR's #'s)
NAD M32 = 70 dB
----------------
Lyngdorf TDAI3400 = 62 dB (@amirm measured 60.7 dB at 5W)
Technics SU-G30 = 61 dB
Denon PMA-60 = 57 dB

I don't know where all those were from and the test conditions, but the comparison between the JC1+ and AHB2 would seem valid if both were measured by Stereophile as long as both were for the unweighted condition (not stated), and @ 1W (that you stated).
 

martijn86

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I get the feeling that the target audience of AVR's is not out for refinement. Looking at the marketing of these things, it seems that you buy a bunch of licences from Dolby and DTS and an x-amount of amplifiers. More licences and amplifiers = more money. Quality wise, if it doesn't immediately stand out as terrible, it is good enough. 2/3rd of all tested AVR's cannot fully resolve a 16-bit audio file! Not my cup of covfefe those things.
 

peng

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While its nice to know the last Denon did well on the test bench, the shear amount of garbage coming out of the AVR market has me quite shy to buying anything until @amirm tests it. Not many places will let you buy, let it be opened and tested by another person, and return if the measurements are garbage, but that is exactly what I now require based on these AVR results.

I'm literally buying NOTHING that isn't first tested.

Agreed, but at least Denon/Maratnz has quite a few of their relatively recent models measured, including the following:

AVR-X5200W, AVR-X3300W by Audioholics.com and the AVR-X3500H, X3600H, PMA-50, AV7705, AV8805

The measurement results seem reasonably consistent between all of them at least at output levels within their specified "rated" level.
 

Ron Texas

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Kind of disappointing. Emotiva remains the high end champ with Denon as the value champ.
 

Dj7675

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The Emotiva XMC-1 and the Monoprice. If the RMC-1 gets Dirac also, it will be 3 Dirac in the top 5.

You can be sure for the opposite: there is no 2-channel dac that can play multichannel music, and never will be :p
I was specifially thinking of AVR’s ie receivers with built in amplification. Unless you need 16 channels payment $3-$5k for a processor alone seems to be a very poor value in my opinion.
 

GXAlan

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I don't know where all those were from and the test conditions, but the comparison between the JC1+ and AHB2 would seem valid if both were measured by Stereophile as long as both were for the unweighted condition (not stated), and @ 1W (that you stated).

All of the #s are from Audio.com.pl except for the Stereophile ones.
All are 1W, A-weighted.
 

BsdKurt

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The real winner in the AVR tests has been Denon. You get the reliability and compatibility WITH excellent performance. The Marantz equivalents haven't done as well partly because they don't seem to offer extra performance.

Denon's Youtube channel accidentally leaked out their 8K lineup. The X6700H will have Atmos Height Virtualization. There will probably be an X8500HA with the 8K upgrade built in.

I tried to find this video but it was taken down. Here's a link that describes some of what was in the video:

https://www.bitfeed.co/2020/05/26/denon-avc-x6700h-home-cinema-amplifier-11-2-with-hdmi-2-1/

There's a couple of surprises in there for me. I thought Denon was moving to an every other year cadence so I'm happy to be wrong about that.

"X6700H can handle up to 11.2 channels with a rated power of 205 W (unfortunately lacking the detailed specifications relating to the actual provision). Using the rca pre-outs so you can get up to 13.2 channels."

If I'm reading the correctly, L/R will be able to disconnected from internal apms like on the x3600h - an assumption based on 13.2 channel processing power with 11 internal amps. If Denon is smart they will allow individual amps to be disconnected and powered down as well but there's no reason to believe that - one can hope though.

The other surprising thing in there is it looks like they almost doubled their amplification power from 105W to 205W.

If this tests as well or better than the x3600h, Denon could really be looking at a home run with this model.
 
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These AVR's have digital S/N ratios that hardly beat 1960's FM tuners, or 1980's cassette decks. Embarrassingly bad.

Exactly, I’ll put my 1988 summerhouse FM-tuner against these anytime ... ;-)

1590767925440.jpeg
 

GXAlan

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The other surprising thing in there is it looks like they almost doubled their amplification power from 105W to 205W..

The X6500H is
140W, 2 ch driven - Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive).
205W Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 1% 1ch Drive).

So it's probably the same amplification stage (which isn't bad for a receiver).
 

bidn

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I am especially very impressed by the world class results of the 32 tone IMD test.... !!


1590769372315.png


If it hadn't been measured I wouldn't believe it. Thank you so much for unmasking this, Amir!

I agree with all who say that this "device" deserves a headless panther (bring in the guillotine!) or worse.

I am curious about the paid sponsored magazines and site which reviewed it... Would be interesting ...
 

Dimifoot

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I was specifially thinking of AVR’s ie receivers with built in amplification. Unless you need 16 channels payment $3-$5k for a processor alone seems to be a very poor value in my opinion.

Misunderstanding. I never think of integrated AV products.
That’s because I don’t consider 350$ per channel+sub integration+cross+delays+room correction poor value.
I don’t see any 2-channel product offering all that for this price.
 

Colonel7

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I get the feeling that the target audience of AVR's is not out for refinement. Looking at the marketing of these things, it seems that you buy a bunch of licences from Dolby and DTS and an x-amount of amplifiers. More licences and amplifiers = more money.
I think you're right. Most AVRs seem like men's trac razor blades. 2 or 3 to do the job and a bunch of others to jam up the works.
 

Brian6751

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I think you're right. Most AVRs seem like men's trac razor blades. 2 or 3 to do the job and a bunch of others to jam up the works.
except we are now seeing mediocre measurements in 2 channel gear that has room correction ie: NAD C658

my question remains; After room correction, can you HEAR the difference? Does the device sound great despite the measurements?

I think a good setup to test this is with the NAD C658 and the MiniDSP SHD. Very similar devices. Both have Dirac room correction. One measures mediocre, the other excellent. Will I be able to hear a difference? Thats what I hope to find out
 
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