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Arcam AV40 AV Processor Review

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amirm

amirm

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Do you want to measure the harmonic distortion of 20000Hz, or the harmonic distortion in the 20-20000Hz range.

Is there an industry standard?
There is not. What there is, is strict requirement to be accurate in how you specify this number. The wording they use is quite odd and one that I have not seen used anywhere. Usually it is stated as 1 kHz without a bandwidth which is also wrong. Here seemingly they show the bandwidth but not the frequency of the primary tone. It is more wrong this way.

Really, these "specs" are not real specs. They are just a couple of random tidbits. Any proper measurement would have to include full graphs and explanation as I provide. And as companies like Benchmark do.
 

Dimifoot

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Really, these "specs" are not real specs. They are just a couple of random tidbits. Any proper measurement would have to include full graphs and explanation as I provide. And as companies like Benchmark do.
I hope that some day this will be the norm, but I doubt that we will see it soon.
If the industry is dragged in this discussion by independently published measurements, it will definitely benefit the customer.
On the other hand there is also a need of agreement on what and how is measured, and preferably measurements should be peer reviewed before they are published.
 
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On the other hand there is also a need of agreement on what and how is measured, and preferably measurements should be peer reviewed before they are published.
Well, I have tested over 250 products with DACs in them. The protocol has been analyzed to death by everyone including a number of manufacturers. The dust has settled on that and confidence is quite high. No one else is really doing what we are doing. So in absence of an industry standards, the tests here are it. :)

I lot of companies have purchased the same analyzer and have replicated my tests and are using them in their development. It is time that mass market/larger companies do the same. Otherwise they will continue to be surprised by my reviews versus their own. They can't continue to live in a bubble, assuming no one looks deep into their design and implementation.
 

Dimifoot

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Well, I have tested over 250 products with DACs in them. The protocol has been analyzed to death by everyone including a number of manufacturers. The dust has settled on that and confidence is quite high. No one else is really doing what we are doing. So in absence of an industry standards, the tests here are it. :)
Maybe you should consider publishing/presenting the protocol in AES
 
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Maybe you should consider publishing/presenting the protocol in AES
I have published my protocols in Widescreen Review Magazine. See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...derstanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/

There is nothing innovating to merit doing a paper for AES. Standardization in industry is a huge effort, full of expense, politics, etc. In the age of Internet, I don't see a reason to resort to that. I have done my bit in corporate world doing that. :)
 

Dimifoot

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I have published my protocols in Widescreen Review Magazine.
The Widescreen Review is not a scientific peer-reviewed journal
 

GXAlan

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The Widescreen Review is not a scientific peer-reviewed journal

Amir‘s test standards are a bit like lap times, except there is more consistency In weather and drivers. Testing balanced outputs at 4V is like testing performance at one race track. You could test at different tracks or see if a car maintains its speed lap after lap. Right or wrong, Amir has chosen 4V in part because there are budget* DACs that achieve e results and it is a reasonable number to pick from the standpoint of enabling flexibility across amps. 2V is nominal for unbalanced CD players.

There are those who say 4V is unnecessary because most amplifiers have Input sensitivity where you can calibrate to THX reference home theater sound without getting to 4V. This is like saying that we should test fuel economy on a regular commute rather than a racetrack.

Everyone is accurate because it represents different tests. It’s not peer review to determine which race track is the most accurate race track for testing cars. It’s just that two reviewers or testers are choosing different test tracks. Easier to compare within a reviewer’s protocol than between.

The problem arises in the gap between advertising and reality. The problem also relies in design choices. Audio manufacturers are claiming a certain top speed, perhaps well above what you can safely drive (analogy of audible difference). But if a company is going to advertise a top speed, you would expect the car to come close, even if it’s only under the right conditions with the wind in the right direction. Amir has found that discrepancies can be dramatic. There are also interesting findings such as showing how good something like a Denon AVR-X3600H can get.

Amir hated my JBL 4319. I think it’s one of my best speakers and I am glad I got it. But the measurements and science are still fully compatible with both opinions. Science doesn’t lie. Interpretation of results is important.

So far, we have seen “embellishments” from advertised specs and actual performance.
 
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The Widescreen Review is not a scientific peer-reviewed journal
Not in a formal way but it is read by many manufacturers and if they have issues with it, usually they contact me or the magazine editor.

Note that AES conference papers (which is majority of what we discuss) are usually NOT peer reviewed either. Only the journal papers have that obligation. Or by request for some conference papers.

Anyway, as I explained, what I am measuring is not something new to require "peer review." It could go into a recommendation standard but then you would have to get sign off from manufactures and that surely will not come.
 

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I hold the products to the stereo DAC standards that produce at least 4 volts of undistorted output from balanced out.
How is this a real life performance test for av-preamps since poweramps from most manufacturers seem to use 1.6-2.5v input sensitivity?
 

GXAlan

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How is this a real life performance test for av-preamps since poweramps from most manufacturers seem to use 1.6-2.5v input sensitivity?

The same way a Nurburgring Lap Time translates to how easy it is to fit a large stroller in the trunk. Both measurements are accurate and useful to different potential buyers.

For a pure home theater application, where you might stick with UNBALANCED output, 1.5 V might be OK. For someone looking for a combo HT and 2ch stereo setup, having the 4V output is helpful. The Arcam PA240 can run at low or high gain. With 2.3V input sensitivity, you get 110dB SNR and with 4.6V input, you can go all the way to 114 dB. It would be nice if an Arcam HT pre-amp could take advantage of the amplifier's performance.
 
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How is this a real life performance test for av-preamps since poweramps from most manufacturers seem to use 1.6-2.5v input sensitivity?
When I pay $4,500 for an AV processor, I should have the option to pair it with best amplification I can find. Right now one of the top ones is Benchmark AHB2:

1590734274500.png


I think for my sweep tests of AHB2 I actually went up to 11 volts input!

Another example is the Purifi amplifier:

index.php


Best performance is achieved by not using the gain stage. If so, then you need a high output voltage for it as well.

Why would I want to reduce the output from the AV processor so I am forced to then amplify it again in the power amp? Makes little sense to me.
 

GXAlan

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When I pay $4,500 for an AV processor, I should have the option to pair it with best amplification I can find. Right now one of the top ones is Benchmark AHB2:
....
Why would I want to reduce the output from the AV processor so I am forced to then amplify it again in the power amp? Makes little sense to me.

You don't even have to leave the Arcam eco-system. To get the best performance from the PA240, you want 4.6V.

1590734818504.png
 
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You don't even have to leave the Arcam eco-system. To get the best performance from the PA240, you want 4.6V.

View attachment 66084
Great find. They told me they design the processor for their amps which only require 0.9 volts and I took their word for it. :(
 

GXAlan

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Great find. They told me they design the processor for their amps which only require 0.9 volts and I took their word for it. :(

https://www.arcam.co.uk/ugc/tor/PA240/User Manual/00_SH299_EN-FR-DE-NL-ES-RU-IT-CN-KO_web_Issue_5_040520.pdf

In fairness, the PA720 (7ch amp), only needs 0.8V unbalanced, 1.6V balanced.

But also, in fairness, Harman talks about using multiple PA240 for an "ultimate" solution.

1590735844066.png


--
For all the innovations that have occurred with Harman's acoustic research that has gotten better speakers for lower prices, I will point out that in 1991, Sidney Harman said:

“The American idea is to do the designing and marketing, and let manufacturing be done by the most labor-intensive nation,” said Harman, who was undersecretary of commerce for Jimmy Carter. “We as a company reject that. We believe the garden in which innovation grows is on the manufacturing floor.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-12-24-fi-935-story.html

I think Geshelli is proof of what can be done with US manufacturing when design/manufacturing are in the same location.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hel2-headphone-amp-review-another-champ.9438/
 

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The same way a Nurburgring Lap Time translates to how easy it is to fit a large stroller in the trunk. Both measurements are accurate and useful to different potential buyers.

For a pure home theater application, where you might stick with UNBALANCED output, 1.5 V might be OK. For someone looking for a combo HT and 2ch stereo setup, having the 4V output is helpful. The Arcam PA240 can run at low or high gain. With 2.3V input sensitivity, you get 110dB SNR and with 4.6V input, you can go all the way to 114 dB. It would be nice if an Arcam HT pre-amp could take advantage of the amplifier's performance.
Most AVP buyers have no use for those 4V measurements, they just skew the real life situation. They would be better served with 2-2.5V balanced values (i.e. measure both 4V and 2V). But I guess ASR reviews are meant for Nurburgring drivers and not your everyday driver on public roads ;)
 
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Most AVP buyers have no use for those 4V measurements, they just skew the real life situation. They would be better served with 2-2.5V balanced values (i.e. measure both 4V and 2V). But I guess ASR reviews are meant for Nurburgring drivers and not your everyday driver on public roads ;)
I am serving both crowds by providing performance relative to output level:

index.php
 

TimoJ

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I am serving both crowds by providing performance relative to output level:

index.php
Does that represent the same situation if output is varied with the volume control? i.e. you input -1 or 0dBFS signal and adjust volume to 2V vs. you lock the volume to some high setting and adjust input to get 2V. Do those give the same results? Since I listen at quite low SPL levels, I'm actually more interested of even lower output values performance, what happens with 1V or 0.5V output with 0dBFS input.
 
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Does that represent the same situation if output is varied with the volume control? i.e. you input -1 or 0dBFS signal and adjust volume to 2V vs. you lock the volume to some high setting and adjust input to get 2V. Do those give the same results? Since I listen at quite low SPL levels, I'm actually more interested of even lower output values performance, what happens with 1V or 0.5V output with 0dBFS input.
The graph shows multiple volume positions as indicated.
 

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Krobar

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@amirm Would you revisit this review if you could get hold of an AV40 again?

I see Arcam have corrected the ADC spec in their new manual revision from 100dB to 93dB but stand by the other specs. It seems highly likely this review suffered the same HDMI output configuration issue as the original Denon X4700h review.
 
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