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Aqua Audio Formula Optologic DAC

Mivera

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Some more details are up on 6moons now - http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua2/1.html

It's a balanced R2R ladder - the only potential advantage I can see over the Soekris DAC module is the opto isolation which probably introduces more problems than it solves. For example normal optoisolators distort pulse widths...

Based on feedback from guys who tried both, Sonny's DIY Mirand DAC is better than the Sorkris. And that's without upsampling to quad DSD with Hqplayer.

dam1021_top_rev3_1.jpg
 

Opus111

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DIY guys have already improved substantially on the original Soekris, he didn't pay enough attention to the signal-induced modulation of the noise levels on his reference voltage which is used as power supply to the latches.
 

Mivera

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DIY guys have already improved substantially on the original Soekris, he didn't pay enough attention to the signal-induced modulation of the noise levels on his reference voltage which is used as power supply to the latches.

I've been following that project from the beginning. Still not ready for prime time. The ESS 9038 is the way to go if you just want to have the best PCM without using an external SRC/SDM engine. It's going to send R2R's to the grave, along with most of the FPGA based implementations.
 

Opus111

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I don't find assertions without any support convincing. If ESS had a story to go with the ESS9038 as to what problems there were with the previous generation chip and how they fixed it, then I'd be all ears.
 

Mivera

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I don't find assertions without any support convincing. If ESS had a story to go with the ESS9038 as to what problems there were with the previous generation chip and how they fixed it, then I'd be all ears.

There's huge differences to the new chip. Not only are the filters and modulators much better, there's a bunch of measures to kill jitter and noise implemented. You don't get a dynamic range of 140db because you haven't made improvements. Dustin told me even the $300 9038 evaluation board powered by a cheap SMPS sounds better than his $5000 Mirus. The Mirus is probably the best DAC on the market using the 9018's. After all the guy who designed the chip designed that DAC.
 

Opus111

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Yeah its all 'he said, she said' stuff. Still completely unconvincing especially when the speaker's working for the company pushing the product.

Going for better numbers without any demonstration that better numbers mean better SQ is just dick waving.

What I found convincing was Martin Mallinson's RMAF presentation from about 4 years back where he talked in detail about the design process, the issues they fixed. That was pure gold, not of the comedy kind either.
 

Mivera

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Yeah its all 'he said, she said' stuff. Still completely unconvincing especially when the speaker's working for the company pushing the product.

Going for better numbers without any demonstration that better numbers mean better SQ is just dick waving.

What I found convincing was Martin Mallinson's RMAF presentation from about 4 years back where he talked in detail about the design process, the issues they fixed. That was pure gold, not of the comedy kind either.

Do you think that the manufacturers who are testing the chip won't be aware if they are better or not? Did you see the detailed spec sheet yet? Dustin's not in the product pushing department, he's an engineer. The high end DAC business only counts for 1% of ESS sales revenue and shrinking anyways. Way more money in cellphone DAC's. And 90% of the manufacturer's in that 1% make DAC's that retail for around $1000. DAC's like the Oppo's are the moneymakers. Not DAC's that sell 50-100 per year.
 

Opus111

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The manufacturers can scream 'better, better' as loud as they like but I still won't find it convincing until they have a story for why its better. I'm aware Dustin's an engineer, he's hardly going to work on a design for many years and then say 'oh dear, all that work is down the drain, its sounding not even as good as the ES9018' is he?
 

Mivera

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The manufacturers can scream 'better, better' as loud as they like but I still won't find it convincing until they have a story for why its better. I'm aware Dustin's an engineer, he's hardly going to work on a design for many years and then say 'oh dear, all that work is down the drain, its sounding not even as good as the ES9018' is he?

Well I suppose if both measured and subjective results being much better isn't enough for you, nothing will be.
 

Opus111

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Your supposition is in error.

Going on your economics points, for just 1%-- of revenue it doesn't make any sense for ESS to spend 10 years of R&D on achieving ultimate SQ. So looks like you're adding facts which are supporting of my position there.
 

Mivera

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Your supposition is in error.

Going on your economics points, for just 1%-- of revenue it doesn't make any sense for ESS to spend 10 years of R&D on achieving ultimate SQ. So looks like you're adding facts which are supporting of my position there.

The technology trickles down to all of their other chips as well. They still need to have a flagship chip. That's what gives the brand the prestige so people want to buy cellphones with Sabre chips.
 

Opus111

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They still need to have a flagship chip. That's what gives the brand the prestige so people want to buy cellphones with Sabre chips.

Full agreement.

Notice that it doesn't need to deliver ultimate sound quality for these aims to be achieved, the target market merely needs to be convinced that it does.
 

Mivera

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Mike, is Dustin willing to write us a few paragraphs on why their new DAC is better than the last generation?

I highly doubt he would come on a forum. I'm not even sure if he's allowed to . Also he knows I'm selling a DAC with the AKM chip now so he might be mad at me :).
 

amirm

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I highly doubt he would come on a forum. I'm not even sure if he's allowed to . Also he knows I'm selling a DAC with the AKM chip now so he might be mad at me :).
I was not asking him to come here. I was asking for him/their company PR people give us a one pager on what makes their chip better than last generation for you to post.
 

Mivera

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I was not asking him to come here. I was asking for him/their company PR people give us a one pager on what makes their chip better than last generation for you to post.

The PR guys are all in California. They haven't publicly released the datasheet yet. Your best bet is to go to the Resonessence room at Axpona at talk to Mark or Han's if he goes. They will be demoing the new Vertias DAC that has the 9028 in it. They can probably tell you. But the block diagram and product brief does show quite a few differences.
 

Mivera

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Full agreement.

Notice that it doesn't need to deliver ultimate sound quality for these aims to be achieved, the target market merely needs to be convinced that it does.

Yes as long as measurement data and subjective testing shows it sounds better, then that's all that's required. ESS is very measurement orientated. So if you consider "euphoric distortions" or anything like that "ultimate sound quality" then I would suggest buying a tube DAC that uses it.
 

fas42

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It's getting into some "fancy" stuff - http://www.enjoythemusic.com/news/

04 / 01 / 16

Astell&Kern Rose Gold AK400 32-bit/384kHz / DSD Player
Astell&Kern has announced their 32-bit/384kHz and DSD10x capable AK400 portable media player ($2700 introductory price). Featuring two ESS Technology SABRE ES9038PRO chips, the world's highest performance 32-bit DAC with an outstanding 140dB DNR, the 8-channel per chip will be used to support unbalanced, balanced and upcoming quadraphonic Hi-Res Music releases.



...

Due to being a video player as well as Hi-Res Audio unit, the 4" screen natively plays 4k video with a resolution of 1000ppi. Due to extensive development in extending battery life plus the power efficiencies of the new ESS Technology SABRE ES9038PRO chipset, the Astell&Kern AK400 has a battery life of 23 hours per charge at 32-bit/384kHz and 80 hours of low resolution lossy MP3. Headphone amplifier output is 500mW at 1.5 Ohms. Frequency response is from 1Hz to 96kHz, DNR and SNR is 127dB, and channel separation is 132dB due in part to the extensive use of copper shielding between circuit boards. An early production version will be showcased at the upcoming AXPONA 2106 show in Chicago, with shipping expected to begin June 1.
 

Mivera

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It's getting into some "fancy" stuff - http://www.enjoythemusic.com/news/

04 / 01 / 16

Astell&Kern Rose Gold AK400 32-bit/384kHz / DSD Player
Astell&Kern has announced their 32-bit/384kHz and DSD10x capable AK400 portable media player ($2700 introductory price). Featuring two ESS Technology SABRE ES9038PRO chips, the world's highest performance 32-bit DAC with an outstanding 140dB DNR, the 8-channel per chip will be used to support unbalanced, balanced and upcoming quadraphonic Hi-Res Music releases.



...

Due to being a video player as well as Hi-Res Audio unit, the 4" screen natively plays 4k video with a resolution of 1000ppi. Due to extensive development in extending battery life plus the power efficiencies of the new ESS Technology SABRE ES9038PRO chipset, the Astell&Kern AK400 has a battery life of 23 hours per charge at 32-bit/384kHz and 80 hours of low resolution lossy MP3. Headphone amplifier output is 500mW at 1.5 Ohms. Frequency response is from 1Hz to 96kHz, DNR and SNR is 127dB, and channel separation is 132dB due in part to the extensive use of copper shielding between circuit boards. An early production version will be showcased at the upcoming AXPONA 2106 show in Chicago, with shipping expected to begin June 1.

Wow that might be much better than people expect. It's for applications like this that many of the upgrades with the 9038 will shine. Amir you better check that out and report back!
 

Opus111

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Due to extensive development in extending battery life plus the power efficiencies of the new ESS Technology SABRE ES9038PRO chipset, the Astell&Kern AK400 has a battery life of 23 hours per charge at 32-bit/384kHz and 80 hours of low resolution lossy MP3. Headphone amplifier output is 500mW at 1.5 Ohms. Frequency response is from 1Hz to 96kHz, DNR and SNR is 127dB, and channel separation is 132dB due in part to the extensive use of copper shielding between circuit boards.

Headphone output specified at 1.5ohms eh? Krell must be quaking in their boots.... With the 127dB SNR they had no need of the latest chip, they threw away 13dB.
 
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