Apple Music vs Tidal

[flz]

I'm trying to follow this thread carefully but am getting confused. So my goal is to get Apple Music lossless into my home hifi while being able to use the Apple Music app on my apple device remotely (without wires). I understand I can get a Wiim mini streamer or such similar device for around $100 and use an optical cable to connect it to my DAC. And then use my Apple device to control the Wiim (or similar device) using Airplay 2. But the "gotcha" is I want AM Lossless. I understand the only way is to use a Mac as the controlling device and have the streamer selected as a system-wide audio output (not selected within AM app). So I can't use an iPhone or iPad. Because Apple Music streaming does not support lossless over Airplay 2 from iOS. Whereas, with Tidal, I can use Tidal Connect from a iPhone/iPad and get lossless from the Wiim mini streamer. So that is the difference. With AM, have to use a Mac if I want lossless. With Tidal Connect, can use any smartphone/tablet.

 

[drmevo]

I'm trying to follow this thread carefully but am getting confused. So my goal is to get Apple Music lossless into my home hifi while being able to use the Apple Music app on my apple device remotely (without wires). I understand I can get a Wiim mini streamer or such similar device for around $100 and use an optical cable to connect it to my DAC. And then use my Apple device to control the Wiim (or similar device) using Airplay 2. But the "gotcha" is I want AM Lossless. I understand the only way is to use a Mac as the controlling device and have the streamer selected as a system-wide audio output (not selected within AM app). So I can't use an iPhone or iPad. Because Apple Music streaming does not support lossless over Airplay 2 from iOS. Whereas, with Tidal, I can use Tidal Connect from a iPhone/iPad and get lossless from the Wiim mini streamer. So that is the difference. With AM, have to use a Mac if I want lossless. With Tidal Connect, can use any smartphone/tablet.

I have the same goal. I think you might be conflating Lossless with High Res. High res is very limited at this point. AirPlay should support lossless in a number of combinations.

 

[flz]

I have the same goal. I think you might be conflating Lossless with High Res. High res is very limited at this point. AirPlay should support lossless in a number of combinations.

No, I mean lossless in 16/44.1 form. Everything I read tells me Apple Music streaming does NOT support lossless in 16/44.1 version over Airplay 2 from iOS (but possible from MacOS as I said in my post). The limiting factor is not Airplay, it is the Apple Music App. Of course Airplay 2 supports lossless. Can you show me anything that indicates otherwise? I think we both want this.

 

[Aperiodic]

Search 'Rogue Amoeba Airfoil'

 

[flz]

Search 'Rogue Amoeba Airfoil'

This app was mentioned on a previous page of this thread (posts #149-152) & requires a Mac computer. Can't do it with just iOS devices alone (unless if you use Raspberry Pi but some of us just aren't interested in RPi). So what is the use if I can already stream Apple Music lossless over Airplay 2 from MacOS? This whole thread seems to have become a rabbit hole, we're all just going around in circles.

 

[telemike]

Airplay 1 is lossless

 

[drmevo]

No, I mean lossless in 16/44.1 form. Everything I read tells me Apple Music streaming does NOT support lossless in 16/44.1 version over Airplay 2 from iOS (but possible from MacOS as I said in my post). The limiting factor is not Airplay, it is the Apple Music App. Of course Airplay 2 supports lossless. Can you show me anything that indicates otherwise? I think we both want this.

I wish there were a consensus. I can’t seem to find any online. I’m sure you are aware, Apple’s article on the matter of lossless conspicuously omits mention of AirPlay: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

 

[Follower]

I wish there were a consensus. I can’t seem to find any online. I’m sure you are aware, Apple’s article on the matter of lossless conspicuously omits mention of AirPlay: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

It is odd that they consistently use the term Wi-fi rather than AirPlay in that link, but I believe in its context that the two are the same, since Wi-fi is AirPlay’s primary protocol. All streaming settings in iOS, macOS etc. allow you to stream over ”Wi-fi Streaming” in lossless 16/44.1; is there any other way to do that other than with AirPlay?

 

[Follower]

Are you using this set up to stream Apple Music?

Yes, an Apple Music subscription, along with streaming a large collection of ripped-from-CD ALAC files on a hard drive (and a few 256 AAC tracks purchased from iTunes), all in the Music app.

 

[Zensō]

It is odd that they consistently use the term Wi-fi rather than AirPlay in that link, but I believe in its context that the two are the same, since Wi-fi is AirPlay’s primary protocol. All streaming settings in iOS, macOS etc. allow you to stream over ”Wi-fi Streaming” in lossless 16/44.1; is there any other way to do that other than with AirPlay?

On Apple’s smart speakers you can use voice control in addition to Airplay, which is probably why they use the term “WiFi Streaming”.

 

[Liya]

Yes, an Apple Music subscription, along with streaming a large collection of ripped-from-CD ALAC files on a hard drive (and a few 256 AAC tracks purchased from iTunes), all in the Music app.

I used to do the same. However, one thing I didn't like was that I could not browse Apple Music library from the Remote app... only what was added to the playlist, or skip a song. Also, all FLAC's got to be converted to ALAC or AAC or mp3 before iTunes could recognize them.
If browsing Apple Music from the Remote app would be possible I would stay with Apple Music. Instead I went for Audirvana for Mac, where I could use my own library + Qobuz and control the whole thing with Audirvana remote app.

 

[Follower]

I used to do the same. However, one thing I didn't like was that I could not browse Apple Music library from the Remote app... only what was added to the playlist, or skip a song. Also, all FLAC's got to be converted to ALAC or AAC or mp3 before iTunes could recognize them.
If browsing Apple Music from the Remote app would be possible I would stay with Apple Music. Instead I went for Audirvana for Mac, where I could use my own library + Qobuz and control the whole thing with Audirvana remote app.

It took a while to get Remote.app transitioned from its iTunes framework to fully supporting Apple Music, but it's fixed by now. I can see and control absolutely everything from its iOS app, including all my files and AM subscription-only music that is either downloaded to the Mac or only in the cloud.

I've never needed FLAC files except for multichannel music, which isn't part of this system, so I've always initially ripped to ALAC.

 

[Liya]

It took a while to get Remote.app transitioned from its iTunes framework to fully supporting Apple Music, but it's fixed by now. I can see and control absolutely everything from its iOS app, including all my files and AM subscription-only music that is either downloaded to the Mac or only in the cloud.

I've never needed FLAC files except for multichannel music, which isn't part of this system, so I've always initially ripped to ALAC.

Are you saying you can browse Apple Music library from the Remote app?

 

[Follower]

Are you saying you can browse Apple Music library from the Remote app?

Yes.

 

[Liya]

Yes.

Wow! Do you know when they have made that possible?

 

[Spider]

I use Tidal+Qobuz+Apple Music & Spotify.
IMHO Qobuz has the best audio quality.
In Denmark Apple Music & Spotify is only half the price of Tidal, Qobuz is a little bit cheaper than Tidal(25%).

 

[Aperiodic]

Apple Lossless has different format support depending on the device.

Apple Music will losslessly play on either an iphone or ipad but is limited to 48kHz on the phone/pad (at least the ones with A-series chips; the ones with the M-series chips might not be limited) and a bit depth of 24. Mac will play at least 192kHz with 24 bits.

The app allows the user to select streaming parameters. My computer is set to lossless. My phone will play up to 48kHz / 24 over wi-fi; over cellular I use the setting to force 256kbps AAC. This sounds respectable (especially in a mobile situation where realIy don't listen as 'critically' and reduces data consumption and therefore bandwidth related problems.

Apple's longstanding refusal to fully support FLAC remains frustrating.

 

[Follower]

Wow! Do you know when they have made that possible?

I recall it started when macOS Catalina was released, and iOS' iTunes remote app started not working correctly and needed an update, which they finally delivered with the new Remote app. I think everything was cleared up by the release of Big Sur, so late 2020 or so.

To this day in tvOS, its Music app sees and controls everything in Apple Music as well, but if you use the Computers app to show music on your Mac's hard drive, only the ripped and purchased files show; no cloud or Apple Music integration.

 

[flz]

I compared Apple Music AAC 256 over Airplay 2 vs. Tidal Hifi/lossless. Could NOT hear a difference (other than volume difference on a few tracks). Streamed over WiiM Mini with optical out to SMSL Su-9n. I'm not surprised since I had previously done online listening tests between lossy & lossless and could not hear a difference. Just my own subjective listening impression.

 

[bkdc]

AAC256 is going to be completely transparent to mortal ears. Lossless is overrated. A 192kHz/24bit file resampled to 44.1/16bit is indistinguishable to human ears. What matters is the quality of the master. I'm still perplexed that this forum which seems to place an emphasis on objectivity has members with a strong preference for lossless. I guess it's the reason some people want a DAC with a 124 SINAD instead of a 110 SINAD.

I was unaware that Apple apps did not support the playback of FLAC. That is ridiculous. But I've been anti-apple when it comes to music anyway despite owning iPads and iPHones. This is because iTunes would alter my files and tags on its own. It annoyed me to no end.

Various compression algorithms are good. But I prefer to stick to the most universal/popular of them all --- MP3.

I'll take whatever integrates better through Roon and my own library. Roon is personal music library-centered. I prefer this over some subscription-centered offering.