Apple lossless official announcement

[voodooless]

I've done a little more digging.

Not really, you've just written a more elaborate summary than I did, for which I was far too lazy I mentioned the two versions as well as the channel layout in my original post already.

It seems clear that binaural Atmos playback is derived from the multichannel audio-atmos-2768 data. Neither the "audio-stereo-256-binaural" nor the "audio-stereo-256-downmix" referenced in the top-level m3u8 file are necessary for binaural playback, at least not on a Mac. They could be used on an iOS device.

But what did you use to playback the Atmos track on? Your Mac's internal speakers, external DAC, headphones? All that might matter of the selection of the tracks. Or it might not and the Music app on macOS always uses the full Atmos track? We simply don't know at this point. On iOS it's even more obscure at this point.

This casts further doubt, in my mind, on the idea that there are pre-rendered, device-specific files for playback on the internal speakers of supported devices.

Only partially. There are still references to the binaural and downmix versions, and we don't know yet when those are used. Possibly those are only for iOS devices. Surely disk space is cheap, but I doubt Apple would keep those version on a server if they were not relevant for something.

 

[Jhify]

I took few minutes of my time to do a little bit of testing last night to compare Apple music and Tidal. Note that I am not an audio engineer whatsoever I am just a musician / producer hobbyist so I don't even know if my testing is really relevant.

To do my testing I reaped the sound out of my mac with the software blackhole. Then I recorded directly into logic pro X. There's no A/D and D/A conversions here, I recorded the digital data directly.
1. I Chose a song that is only available in 16/44.1 both on Apple Music and Tidal
2. I recorded the output of apple music with a the audio output setting set on the blackhole software
3. I I recorded the audio output of Tidal with the audio output of Tidal set on the blackhole software (exclusive mode was not available)
4. I download the original lossless, uncompressed file from the artist's bandcamp.
5. I zoomed in the three tracks on logic pro as far as I could go (You can actually see the digital steps of the sine wave) to time-align the three track as much as possible. It was not perfect but I feel like I did a good job with that.

Then:
1. I did a visual comparison of the sine waves
2. I did a audio comparison of the original track with Apple music and then Tidal phase reversed to be able to hear the differences between each streaming reaped files vs. the original audio file.
3. I did a audio comparison between the three with my focal shapes and hd600 & 7506

Results:
The first thing that suprised me the most is that even though the three files are 4:04 long the they couldn't stay time aligned for very long... Apple music one was shorter than the orignal file and the TIdal one was longer. I repeated the process multiple times with always the same result: the space time continuum seems to happen faster on Apple music and slower on tidal... Maybe I did something wrong here because I've got no idea why. Differences were really short though maybe 2/10th of a second shorter with Apple and 4/10th longer with Tidal.

1. Visually, the apple music sine waves was looking more alike the original file by a good margin. I kept scroling around going back and forth one to the other with the arrow keys and no doubt that for this comparison the Apple music reaped file was more true to the source and looking very similar. All my meters, loudness, peaks, etc. were identical for all of them.

2. The phase reverted comparison result was not a surprise after the visual one. Apple music was way more true to the source with differences audible only in the upper midrange and treble and raisonably quiet. Differences with the Tidal one were louder and down to the midrange area.

3. For the listening test, I could not dicern any significant differences between the files and if I did find some, maybe it was a placebo effect. I could not tell which one I like the most and the human auditory memory being very poor, I can't imagine anyone being able to succeed in a blind test. Please note that I was not in the best condition for critical listening though. It was still day time with (low but still..) ambiant noises in a partly treated home studio.

Anyway. This is worth what's it's worth (maybe peanuts) but it seems like, for this track, Apple music offers a better streaming quality than Tidal. However this will not affect the enjoyment you'll have listening music with one or the other by any means in my opinion.

It'd be interesting someone with actual skills I don't have do a proper comparison thought.

Sorry for bad english.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

I agree sub-categories would help clear things up and also make Dolby seem more transparent.
But how I understand it all works now, I get kind of get how Dolby are marketing Atmos as this “universal” standardised experience.

I guess the only way to judge if all Atmos versions can be blanketed as “Atmos” is by testing out every version side by side when they are available.
(subjectively since I have a strong belief that the data between versions will be different)

I have a Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 system (with speakers) and based on my personal experience, the binaural version on Apple Music bears almost no similarity to the way movie soundtracks in Dolby Atmos sound. At best, depending on who did the remix, you “might“ just get a more pleasant sounding alternative to the original stereo mix with a slightly wider soundstage, with vocals pushed back in the mix a little from altered level, EQ and reverb. At worst, subjectively, you might get an outright abortion; it’s all dependent on decisions made when the remix was created. I have yet to hear anything with sound element that appear to be overhead nor behind me on a binaural Dolby Atmos mix, features that are hallmarks of the immersive “speaker version“ of Dolby Atmos. Given the vast differences in the capabilities of the two versions, they have no business carrying the exact same moniker, in my opinion. Now, human response can vary to this sort of artificial sound reproduction minutia, but that’s been my personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

I took few minutes of my time to do a little bit of testing last night to compare Apple music and Tidal. Note that I am not an audio engineer whatsoever I am just a musician / producer hobbyist so I don't even know if my testing is really relevant.

To do my testing I reaped the sound out of my mac with the software blackhole. Then I recorded directly into logic pro X. There's no A/D and D/A conversions here, I recorded the digital data directly.
1. I Chose a song that is only available in 16/44.1 both on Apple Music and Tidal
2. I recorded the output of apple music with a the audio output setting set on the blackhole software
3. I I recorded the audio output of Tidal with the audio output of Tidal set on the blackhole software (exclusive mode was not available)
4. I download the original lossless, uncompressed file from the artist's bandcamp.
5. I zoomed in the three tracks on logic pro as far as I could go (You can actually see the digital steps of the sine wave) to time-align the three track as much as possible. It was not perfect but I feel like I did a good job with that.

Then:
1. I did a visual comparison of the sine waves
2. I did a audio comparison of the original track with Apple music and then Tidal phase reversed to be able to hear the differences between each streaming reaped files vs. the original audio file.
3. I did a audio comparison between the three with my focal shapes and hd600 & 7506

Results:
The first thing that suprised me the most is that even though the three files are 4:04 long the they couldn't stay time aligned for very long... Apple music one was shorter than the orignal file and the TIdal one was longer. I repeated the process multiple times with always the same result: the space time continuum seems to happen faster on Apple music and slower on tidal... Maybe I did something wrong here because I've got no idea why. Differences were really short though maybe 2/10th of a second shorter with Apple and 4/10th longer with Tidal.

1. Visually, the apple music sine waves was looking more alike the original file by a good margin. I kept scroling around going back and forth one to the other with the arrow keys and no doubt that for this comparison the Apple music reaped file was more true to the source and looking very similar. All my meters, loudness, peaks, etc. were identical for all of them.

2. The phase reverted comparison result was not a surprise after the visual one. Apple music was way more true to the source with differences audible only in the upper midrange and treble and raisonably quiet. Differences with the Tidal one were louder and down to the midrange area.

3. For the listening test, I could not dicern any significant differences between the files and if I did find some, maybe it was a placebo effect. I could not tell which one I like the most and the human auditory memory being very poor, I can't imagine anyone being able to succeed in a blind test. Please note that I was not in the best condition for critical listening though. It was still day time with (low but still..) ambiant noises in a partly treated home studio.

Anyway. This is worth what's it's worth (maybe peanuts) but it seems like, for this track, Apple music offers a better streaming quality than Tidal. However this will not affect the enjoyment you'll have listening music with one or the other by any means in my opinion.

It'd be interesting someone with actual skills I don't have do a proper comparison thought.

Sorry for bad english.

I wonder whether any MQA processing that may be present on the TIDAL files might explain the differences? (Just a stab in the dark on my part)

 

[Jhify]

I wonder whether any MQA processing that may be present on the TIDAL files might explain the differences? (Just a stab in the dark on my part)

This is why I made sure to choose a track that is only available in 16/44.1 on both plateforms and doesn't exist anywhere in MQA to be sure it wouldn't be just an unfloded MQA version on tidal but the real redbook format.

Original file was AIFF. Apple music streams in ALAC. Tidal Hifi in FLAC.

We'd need some expert advises to know if what I did was any relevant but I could do some more testing if you guys wish.

 

[mononoaware]

it’s all dependent on decisions made when the remix was created.

I would expect giving the best experience would have to start from the initial recording process using 7+1+4 = 12 microphones (placed strategically in space) to record a truly “being there” surround experience.
I expect it will work best with recording intimate live/acoustic performances and played back on a proper Atmos surround speaker setup (maybe even combined with virtual reality in the future to give you a virtual personal concert).

I suspect what you listened to is the original recordings for PCM stereo being re-mixed as 7.1.4 (if it is really done by a person or just an algorithm who knows).
Another possibility is some tracks will be re-mixed in a way where trumpet appears at 11 a clock, vocals at 1 a clock, drums at 12 a clock, with reverb added etc.
(I mean what aspect of a performance comes at you from above? except for reflections)

This remixing of stereo recordings is waste in my opinion as it is just using the multiple-channels as a gimmick and not giving a proper superior experience to stereo sound.
(Although this could be the plan all-along: having Billie Eilish whisper at you from here then over there then over there, this would probably really impress the share holders)

And I can only see it working properly with a proper Atmos surround speaker setup. I expect virtual binaural mix’s on personal devices (even with a proper 7.1.4 microphone recorded mix) have a chance of butchering the entire end user experience (I say end because it’s the final audio output device which the user chooses).

I have yet to hear anything with sound element that appear to be overhead nor behind me on a binaural Dolby Atmos mix, features that are hallmarks of the immersive “speaker version“ of Dolby Atmos.

I think you will only get that experience with the proper multi-channel creation process starting with the recording as explained above and played back on the proper Atmos surround speaker setup.

 

[Tom C]

50 pages. Whew! I think that's the longest thread I ever attempted to read in its entirety
I've been using a MIDI type lightning to USB B connector from iPad Air (ancient, maybe seven years old, maybe more) and iPhone 12 mini to Sabaj D5, McIntosh C2500, Topping E30 and Okto Research dac8, all with no problems. Never streamed before, previously always used file ripped from disc or downloaded. I am really enjoying Apple Music and Primephonic. They have to me finally become worth doing.
Did some crude, totally uncontrolled and sighted A/B comparisons between my best vinyl and Apple music, and found Apple Music slightly better, i.e., clearer and quieter. Not sure I'd be able to tell any difference between HiRes vs lossless 24\44.1, but I like to think it's an improvement over 256kB. Might be all in my imagination, but that's what I'm telling myself, and I enjoy the new Apple service immensely.
Question: If I use iPad with lightning to HDMI adaptor into Denon AVR, will I get Atmos? Or will it be plain vanilla multichannel? Anyone know?

 

[voodooless]

Question: If I use iPad with lightning to HDMI adaptor into Denon AVR, will I get Atmos? Or will it be plain vanilla multichannel? Anyone know?

From what I’ve seen you’ll probably not even get plain multichannel.

 

[Tom C]

 

[Honken]

The uncertainty around MCH is definitely annoying. Apple would do well to include some finer controls and to release some statements on what their product actually delivers in various scenarios.

The lossless side of it all works fine though, it's fairly easy to test for (just monitor the network bandwidth if you are paranoid - which I've done) and I like the separate controls for streaming at home vs. on the go and storing it all. That side of the equation is surprisingly intuitive.

 

[Tom C]

Just tried JDS Labs Atom DAC, using MIDI cable. Failed. Received the error message that the device requires too much power, but the Atom is powered by its own wall wart. Disappointing.

 

[DimitryZ]

Just tried JDS Labs Atom DAC, using MIDI cable. Failed. Received the error message that the device requires too much power, but the Atom is powered by its own wall wart. Disappointing.

I am sorry to hear that.

You will need this or third party equivalent:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01F7KJDIM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_QTETRRD4JX61TZC4EHQA

I have used this with multiple DACs with no issues.

Other than the cirmventable power issues, IOS is an excellent streaming platform.

 

[Tom C]

I am sorry to hear that.

You will need this or third party equivalent:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01F7KJDIM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_QTETRRD4JX61TZC4EHQA

I have used this with multiple DACs with no issues.

Other than the cirmventable power issues, IOS is an excellent streaming platform.

So, it looks like this has a USB A port, plus female lightning, and you can keep the iPad or phone charged while you play music for untold hours. Maybe more useful than a straight MIDI cord.
But I think you would still need a powered USB hub, if the DAC were not self powered. I know in the past, I’ve had some problems (dropouts, freezes and ”static”) when using USB powered hubs with Windows device (e.g., Surface, which only has a single USB port). I don’t own a bus powered DAC, but I wonder if some might draw too much power from the mobile device host, require a powered USB hub to operate, and then give sound quality problems.

 

[DimitryZ]

So, it looks like this has a USB A port, plus female lightning, and you can keep the iPad or phone charged while you play music for untold hours. Maybe more useful than a straight MIDI cord.
But I think you would still need a powered USB hub, if the DAC were not self powered. I know in the past, I’ve had some problems (dropouts, freezes and ”static”) when using USB powered hubs with Windows device (e.g., Surface, which only has a single USB port). I don’t own a bus powered DAC, but I wonder if some might draw too much power from the mobile device host, require a powered USB hub to operate, and then give sound quality problems.

That's correct. I run the USB powered hub and from there to several DACs. The DAC that's on is the one that will play.

 

[drfous]

Bought this adapter for $15. connects to USB dac and charges the ipad at the same time. Both work.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08ZLZLCTF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[mononoaware]

 

[mononoaware]

For those who didn’t or cannot watch, the video contains some information that I thought would be interesting to some:

- works on iOS 14.6

- sound engineer demoing Atmos mix says “you can do anything you want, it’s the Wild West”
(soon enough maybe you will have them make a creative decision with the drums coming from above as if the band is living above you in a practice session)

- come away with me - Norah Jones (best Atmos experience according to host especially “shoot the moon”), also “the entire Olivia rodrigo album” and “here comes the sun - the beatles”.

- “you have to sift through the junk”

 

[Blaspheme]

For those who didn’t or cannot watch, the video contains some information that I thought would be interesting to some:

- works on iOS 14.6

- sound engineer demoing Atmos mix says “you can do anything you want, it’s the Wild West”
(soon enough maybe you will have them make a creative decision with the drums coming from above as if the band is living above you in a practice session)

- come away with me - Norah Jones (best Atmos experience according to host especially “shoot the moon”), also “the entire Olivia rodrigo album” and “here comes the sun - the beatles”.

- “you have to sift through the junk”

I did watch. Those recommendations look to be worth experimenting vis-à-vis playback pathways and headphones. Norah Jones* almost manages to bridge the gap between insipid audiophilia and listenable. I hadn't heard Olivia Rodrigo before, it's not bad. She starts with an Elvis Costello riff from Pump It Up** which was a blast (from the past). I've just done a quick listen, not an Atmos listen, so—as the Betoota Advocate says—more to come ...

*edit: Come Away With Me isn't showing up as Atmos for me—regional restriction?

**edit again: speaking of Pump It Up if I leave lossless download enabled but set Atmos to always on, I get an AAC stream (it's not an Atmos album) when I set Atmos to off, I get a lossless stream (it's 'hi-res lossless' in this instance) on macOS.

Also, I hadn't read the info appended to the album notes, which is a nice summary:

All Apple Music subscribers using the latest version of Apple Music on iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Apple TV can listen to thousands of Dolby Atmos Music tracks using any headphones. When listening with compatible* Apple or Beats headphones, Dolby Atmos Music will play back automatically when available for a song. For other headphones, go to Settings > Music > Audio and set the Dolby Atmos switch to “Always On.” You can also hear Dolby Atmos Music using the built-in speakers on compatible** iPhones, iPads, and MacBook Pros, or by connecting your Apple TV 4K to a compatible TV or AV receiver.

*AirPods, AirPods Pro, AirPods Max, BeatsX, Beats Solo3, Beats Studio3, Powerbeats3, Beats Flex, Powerbeats Pro, and Beats Solo Pro

**Works with iPhone 7 or later with the latest version of iOS; 12.9-inch iPad Pro (3rd generation or later), 11-inch iPad Pro, iPad (6th generation or later), iPad Air (3rd generation), and iPad mini (5th generation) with the latest version of iPadOS; and MacBook (2018 model and later).

 

[mononoaware]

I did watch. Those recommendations look to be worth experimenting vis-à-vis playback pathways and headphones. Norah Jones manages to bridge the gap between insipid audiophilia and listenable. I hadn't heard Olivia Rodrigo before, it's not bad. She starts with an Elvis Costello riff from Pump It Up which was a blast (from the past). I've just done a quick listen, not an Atmos listen, so—as the Betoota Advocate says—more to come ...

Also, I hadn't read the info appended to the album notes, which is a nice summary:

I thought the Arecommendations may be worthwhile to get a fair experience for those who expressed disappointment.

Norah Jones manages to bridge the gap between insipid audiophilia and listenable. I hadn't heard Olivia Rodrigo before, it's not bad. She starts with an Elvis Costello riff from Pump It Up which was a blast (from the past). I've just done a quick listen, not an Atmos listen, so—as the Betoota Advocate says—more to come ...

I must admit I listen to a different channel of modern music.
I do recognize the name “Norah Jones”. . .
Looking forward to your feedback regarding Atmos Apple Music experience.

I am likely a poor candidate to experience/appreciate it.

 

[mkt]

*edit: Come Away With Me isn't showing up as Atmos for me—regional restriction?

I get tracks 1--14 as Atmos, but not the rest. So the album does not show up as Atmos.