Apple lossless official announcement

[kejar31]

I honestly don't know why more people are excited about atmos music.. I personally could care less about headphone use for it but seriously this could be a huge jump in proper reproduction of recordings when done right for in home listening. Sure it sucks to have to buy more speakers a processor etc but do you also think we should have stuck ourselves in Mono because it cost more money for another speaker amplifier etc?

 

[vhild§]

You might need a bigger power supply. My ipad pro’s 18 watt supply doesn’t work but when I switch to a 30 watt its fine with my D30pro. FWIW, I have a startech hub i’m using, not the camera connection kit.

Really? Interesting!

 

[norcalscott]

It shouldn’t be, at least I have it plugged with a wall wart. Same thing with Pro-Ject. Apple doesn’t make things easy when it comes to 3rd party devices.

I've had mixed success on my 2019 iPad Air and connecting different DACs. The odd thing is that, with the camera adapter, some DACs will work one time and then not the next. Sometimes restarting the iPad works, sometimes it doesn't. My wife has an identical iPad and identical camera adapter and sometimes just changing to that adapter makes it work, for a while.

I have to believe that the newer USB-C iPads will work better than this, so if you are looking at this for a solution, that is probably the bare minimum to use. At that point, probably better to use a cheap Android tablet, which will almost always work with no issue (once Apple enables bit perfect playback for Android)

 

[Katji]

I honestly don't know why more people are excited about atmos music.. I personally could care less about headphone use for it but seriously this could be a huge jump in proper reproduction of recordings when done right for in home listening. Sure it sucks to have to buy more speakers a processor etc but do you also think we should have stuck ourselves in Mono because it cost more money for another speaker amplifier etc?

As long as it doesn't potentially mess up stereo playback like MQA DAC can mess up normal audio streams.
The main thing, though, is convenience, not just the cost factor.
More speakers and room space is not so much a concern when it can be small "pod" type speakers.

 

[kejar31]

As long as it doesn't potentially mess up stereo playback like MQA DAC can mess up normal audio streams.
The main thing, though, is convenience, not just the cost factor.
More speakers and room space is not so much a concern when it can be small "pod" type speakers.

So we are not talking about some magic unfolding / up sampling of sample and bit rates here like MQA. I mean lets be honest you cant get information where it does not exist, which is why MQA was BS from the beginning. (The only way they even explained how this worked was to pull more sample rate at the cost of bit rate which is worse than just having CD quality IMHO)

LOL It reminds me of how some movies use this magic enhance function on photos that are to small and blurred out to suddenly make out faces etc.

We are talking about a mastering process unitizing object based logic with end user processors that understand your speaker layout and the ability to put those objects in the proper location of your listening field based on that speaker layout. This is not some technology that was just released either, its been in place for years for movies in both movie theaters and home theaters. How do you think they take the same track from a theater with up to 256 speakers and then use it in a home theater with 7 (I know many tracks for moves are remastered for home use but they don't have to be). Its because its not channel based, it's object location based, which means you can scale it from 2 to 256 channels placing musicians and crowds wherever needed in that sound field with proper reverb for perceived scale etc.

 

[DimitryZ]

So we are not talking about some magic unfolding / up sampling of sample and bit rates here like MQA. I mean lets be honest you cant get information where it does not exist, which is why MQA was BS from the beginning. (The only way they even explained how this worked was to pull more sample rate at the cost of bit rate which is worse than just having CD quality IMHO)

LOL It reminds me of how some movies use this magic enhance function on photos that are to small and blurred out to suddenly make out faces etc.

We are talking about a mastering process unitizing object based logic with end user processors that understand your speaker layout and the ability to put those objects in the proper location of your listening field based on that speaker layout. This is not some technology that was just released either, its been in place for years for movies in both movie theaters and home theaters. How do you think they take the same track from a theater with up to 256 speakers and then use it in a home theater with 7 (I know many tracks for moves are remastered for home use but they don't have to be). Its because its not channel based, it's object location based, which means you can scale it from 2 to 256 channels placing musicians and crowds wherever needed in that sound field with proper reverb for perceived scale etc.

There is nothing *magic* about neither MQA nor Atmos.

If one was concerned that MQA would somehow become a dominant world format (highly unlikely) and deny access to the lossless LPCM masters, one should be ten times more concerned that Atmos will do the same (with multiple streaming services offering it now, as opposed to one for MQA).

 

[voodooless]

If one was concerned that MQA would somehow become a dominant world format (highly unlikely) and deny access to the lossless LPCM masters, one should be ten times more concerned that Atmos will do the same (with multiple streaming services offering it now, as opposed to one for MQA).

Except it won’t.. I can actually choose which master I want to hear. And that will probably remain that way for the foreseeable future.

 

[Zensō]

I've had mixed success on my 2019 iPad Air and connecting different DACs. The odd thing is that, with the camera adapter, some DACs will work one time and then not the next. Sometimes restarting the iPad works, sometimes it doesn't. My wife has an identical iPad and identical camera adapter and sometimes just changing to that adapter makes it work, for a while.

I have to believe that the newer USB-C iPads will work better than this, so if you are looking at this for a solution, that is probably the bare minimum to use. At that point, probably better to use a cheap Android tablet, which will almost always work with no issue (once Apple enables bit perfect playback for Android)

I have to wonder if this has to do with the particular DACs? I’ve used various iPhones and iPads (going back to Gen 6 and up to the latest Pro) with a variety of DACs and with the proper connections I’ve never had an issue.

 

[Katji]

For the sake of perhaps reducng the confusion...


Apple Explains How Spatial Audio Head Tracking Will Work on Apple TV
Today, 01:58
With tvOS 15, Apple is bringing Spatial Audio to the Apple TV when the set-top box is used with AirPods Pro or AirPods Max. It has been unclear how this feature will work because the ‌Apple TV‌ does not have a U1 chip for head tracking purposes, but Apple recently gave an explanation to Engadget.

 

[norcalscott]

I have to wonder if this has to do with the particular DACs? I’ve used various iPhones and iPads (going back to Gen 6 and up to the latest Pro) with a variety of DACs and with the proper connections I’ve never had an issue.

It's very likely dependent on the DAC - I have tested with two FiiO DACs and the TempoTec Sonata - I really think it has to do with the supply of power to the DACs, but what is strange is that it is highly inconsistent with no clear pattern of whether it will work on not. Ended up being just too much trouble to use. I've got a few new DACs since the last time I tested, and new iPad OS releases since then - I will give it another go when I have a chance.

 

[kejar31]

There is nothing *magic* about neither MQA nor Atmos.

If one was concerned that MQA would somehow become a dominant world format (highly unlikely) and deny access to the lossless LPCM masters, one should be ten times more concerned that Atmos will do the same (with multiple streaming services offering it now, as opposed to one for MQA).

From my understanding, in order to obtain the extra sampling rate MQA simply adds the higher frequency closer to the noise floor within the original band limited track. But think about how that would work.... Not only would that higher sampling rate be very close to the original noise floor, it would also limit the tracks original noise floor to begin with. To say its unfolding into a higher quality track is BS and in fact only makes the original track a lesser quality from a noise floor perspective, which IMHO is much more than the sampling rate. If I am wrong please explain to me how I am wrong.

 

[DimitryZ]

From my understanding, in order to obtain the extra sampling rate MQA simply adds the higher frequency closer to the noise floor within the original band limited track. But think about how that would work.... Not only would that higher sampling rate be very close to the original noise floor, it would also limit the tracks original noise floor to begin with. To say its unfolding into a higher quality track is BS and in fact only makes the original track a lesser quality from a noise floor perspective, which IMHO is much more than the sampling rate. If I am wrong please explain to me how I am wrong.

Please read @Werner explanation on how MQA works in the now locked MQA thread.

My point was whatever MQA difference with the LPCM is, it's minor when comparing it to applying strong DSP to s 2 channel master to create a "sense" of space.

In my long history with this hobby I disliked any attempts to create "extra space" in a two channel music - and there were many, starting with "binaural."

"3D sound" and other modern variations seem to be just the latest attempt at that.

 

[Beershaun]

When did bit perfect go from trying to stop Windows or crappy windows drivers and software from having internal EQ being applied to being some magic audio perfection? Do you really believe even at the mastering level that bit and sample rates are not being modified. Honestly though even if the sample rate is changed from 192 to 48 or 44.1 to 48 do you really think you are going to hear the difference? Even when I was young I could hear no higher than 20khz or so, meaning 44.1 was sufficient for my hearing in my 20's.

You continue to miss the point. They are explicitly advertising something customers can't actually access as it's advertised.

 

[abdo123]

You continue to miss the point. They are explicitly advertising something customers can't actually access as it's advertised.

when did they advertise bit perfect transmission?

 

[kejar31]

You continue to miss the point. They are explicitly advertising something customers can't actually access as it's advertised.

Not really, Apple themselves are defiantly servicing up the files as intended, it is not their responsibility to ensure your device can play it back.. As indicated in the thread it is possible with a USB DAC attached to a tablet or phone to get the file in 24/192, if that is what is being offered.

My point was that even if you couldn't get a sample rate above 48k, what would getting more really be giving you? Why would this be the camel that broke the straws back?

 

[Zensō]

There seems to be some confusion around the terms “lossless” vs “bit perfect”? In Apple’s use of the term, ”lossless” refers to their ALAC compression technology. On the other hand, “bit perfect” refers to a characteristic of data transmission and has nothing to due with the compression tech used in the file. A low-res MP3, for example, can be transmitted as a bit-perfect file.

 

[muslhead]

Tidal has Sony 360 reality as well as Atmos you should have checked there, Apple just came out this week and you fanboying already, have a nice day.oh and keep insult for your self,you don't want to start with me,P.S. I have the whole Beatles catalog and the Abbey Road set as well.

You are sooo cool. Does your ego have its own zip code?

 

[kejar31]

Please read @Werner explanation on how MQA works in the now locked MQA thread.

My point was whatever MQA difference with the LPCM is, it's minor when comparing it to applying strong DSP to s 2 channel master to create a "sense" of space.

In my long history with this hobby I disliked any attempts to create "extra space" in a two channel music - and there were many, starting with "binaural."

"3D sound" and other modern variations seem to be just the latest attempt at that.

So I do not like some of the techniques used in the past either to create 3D sound for headphone listening. In fact I believe that Apple is using some DSP processing on top of ATMOS in order to get their 3D effect (spatial sound as they call it) for headphones.

Regardless of that whole schtick I am personally excited about proper ATMOS sound in my theater with an Apple TV4K putting out proper ATMOS to my receiver for music and IMHO you should be too if you have a listening room.

 

[voodooless]

My point was whatever MQA difference with the LPCM is, it's minor when comparing it to applying strong DSP to s 2 channel master to create a "sense" of space.

In my long history with this hobby I disliked any attempts to create "extra space" in a two channel music - and there were many, starting with "binaural."

"3D sound" and other modern variations seem to be just the latest attempt at that.

The point of Atmos is that is not supposed to be a fancy surround up mix, but a new mix made specially in 3D space. This can then be played in a variety of speaker systems, including a stereo setup. So the idea is not to add a 3D effect, but to render sound in real 3D space.

Now the question is if they actually did use a completely fresh mix to make the Atmos master. Who knows.. Next question: is is actually a good one?

And sure, you may dislike it. Hell, I haven’t heated anything yet that I was really impressed with (on headphones). But upfront dismissing it as yet another funny 3D effect is probably not totally fair.

 

[txbdan]

I was about to ask if I could see the playback depth/rate in Music when I discovered the little wavy lines icon in the player. Nice. So far I've yet to find a 96khz track. Anyone have one? Jeez I typed that and Kurt Vile came on. "Wheelhouse" is 24/96khz.

For some reason SoundSource (MacOS) isn't adjusting its bitrate automatically. I thought it did when I play a 24/96 in Audirvana or something. I'm using a MOTU M4. How does this switching work? Would it be SoundSource or the MOTU driver? Or Music?