Apple lossless official announcement

[hmscott]

True, but what will they think? I would guess the majority will think that Hi-Res doesn't make much of an audible difference, and will conclude it's a gimmick. This isn't like 4K video where many people with a 70"+ display can see a visibly better image. I suspect for most people with common equipment Hi-Res will sound no different to them than 256kbps AAC.

Yup, I agree, mostly due to the poor quality audio devices most people use to listen to music: Beats / Airpods / Earpods, but this is where Apple could capitalize on the Hi-Res release, to put out resolving headphones, IEMs, and LDAC/Hires-Wireless BT devices.

Even my mid-tier headphones aren't resolving enough. For example I didn't hear tube HISS on old worn out tubes on my headphones, but a wall of HISS was clearly overpowering in my sensitive IEM's. Which set me off on insisting 100%+/100%+Life measured NIB/NOS tubes. Very much worth the effort to find, no HISS in even the most sensitive 20BA IEM's.

I can hear the difference because my hardware/headphones/IEMs are higher resolving, if Apple can bring that capability out at more affordable prices, that would move Hi-Res audio value forward again.

Hey, it could happen!

In my view, Apple is only offering lossless music now because of Amazon and Spotify getting on the lossless bandwagon. The engineers at these companies know darned well that no one is going to actually hear any difference, which has been proven over and over again in blind testing. This is all about staying on par with their competitors and trying to control the streaming market.

I don’t know the exact answer to your question, but I would assume it was the year the Camera Connection Kit became available, which is the hardware required to get a bit perfect stream from an iOS device with a Lightning port.

And, the Amazon.com: Apple Lightning to USB Camera Adapter released on Amazon, November 1, 2018...

Then what came out to support 24/192k? The Audeze Cipher 24-bit High-Resolution Lightning Cable...but I cannot find information on it, only as it is recommended for specific Audeze headphones... weird, it's simply not individually documented... still looking...

Slowly I am recalling the Audeze Cipher was the first...maybe?

Spoiler: The world's first 24-bit Lightning cable for higher-resolution sound

Audeze iSINE20 In-Ear Headphone (referenceanalog.com)

The world's first 24-bit Lightning cable for higher-resolution sound

Audeze's award-winning CIPHER Lightning cable specially optimized for the iSINE Series, delivers 24-bit digital audio from iPhone/iPad/IPod to the headphones. The CIPHER cable contains a high-quality inline amplifier, digital-to-analog converter, and DSP. With the powerful DSP capabilities of the Cipher cable, the iSINE headphones deliver a vivid, almost like-you're-there experience. Customize the sound in real-time with the Audeze iOS App. It features two presets and a 10-band equalizer that changes EQ in real time. Refine the bass levels and tamp down the highs on peaky recordings you still love to hear. The two EQ presets travel with the cable when switching devices.

Customize your sound in real-time with the Audeze iOS App
The Audeze DSP app features two presets to personalize your music playback. It features a 10-band equalizer that changes EQ in real time. Refine the bass levels and tamp down the highs on peaky recordings you still love. Save two EQ curve presets that travel with the cable when switching devices.

Engineered and handcrafted in California
Both the iSINE10 and iSINE20 headphones are engineered for superb long-term comfort and deliver an immersive, dynamic music experience. Audeze's innovative planar magnetic technology delivers astonishingly clear and accurate sound wherever you go.

Great Sound comes in small packages
To bring the sound of the award-winning LCD Collection to in-ear headphones, Audeze worked closely with strategic partner Designworks, a BMW Group Company. Every part of the iSINE is designed to bring the world-renowned Audeze sound to a global market in a smaller, lighter package. Great care has gone into the design of the iSINE series, from the housings that minimize reflections and diffractions to ensuring a comfortable, secure fit. At 20 grams, it is the lightest planar headphone ever made.

 

[MOCKBA]

From the record labels. Many 24/192 albums currently available on Qobuz.

The question is still: is it just up conversion or a real master recording?

 

[mSpot]

The question is still: is it just up conversion or a real master recording?

Streaming services use the files provided by the record label, and each release may be different. On Qobuz, some music include the album booklet (PDF) which may include recording notes. The Channel Classics label has many 24/192 albums and they appear to be originally recorded in DSD and downconverted from DXD (24/352).

 

[hmscott]

Streaming services use the files provided by the record label, and each release may be different. On Qobuz, some music include the album booklet (PDF) which may include recording notes. The Channel Classics label has many 24/192 albums and they appear to be originally recorded in DSD and downconverted from DXD (24/352).

View attachment 131638

That album "insert" didn't include those recording specifics, where did you find them?

I did find this nice collection of Hi-Res recording labels that include Channel Classics, and more:

Yes, There Really is Music After Vinyl - Part 4 - Positive Feedback (positive-feedback.com)

Do you have any more sources for Hi-Res recording labels to recommend?

 

[MOCKBA]

Streaming services use the files provided by the record label, and each release may be different. On Qobuz, some music include the album booklet (PDF) which may include recording notes. The Channel Classics label has many 24/192 albums and they appear to be originally recorded in DSD and downconverted from DXD (24/352).

View attachment 131638

It is more related to truth. Thanks.

 

[mSpot]

That album "insert" didn't include those recording specifics, where did you find them?

Not sure what you mean by that. On Qobuz, some albums have the PDF booklet which can be viewed or downloaded. For that particular album, you can download it here: https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/34/000131643.pdf (my screenshot is page 22).

 

[hmscott]

Not sure what you mean by that. On Qobuz, some albums have the PDF booklet which can be viewed or downloaded. For that particular album, you can download it here: https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/34/000131643.pdf (my screenshot is page 22).

That PDF is a very nice "insert" - shorthand for such a "backgrounder" "pamphlet" being "inserted" into an LP/CD case, I didn't realize those terms had fallen into disuse, what with no LP/CD/Collection boxes coming into contact with audiophiles. "Booklet" works too.

But, I was looking for the link to this info "The Channel Classics label has many 24/192 albums and they appear to be originally recorded in DSD and downconverted from DXD (24/352)"

Was it from their own website? Or did you collect it elsewhere(s)? I don't see that info in the pdf, or on their website, maybe you collected it by looking at each album birate options for download info?

 

[jhwalker]

That PDF is a very nice "insert" - shorthand for such a "backgrounder" "pamphlet" being "inserted" into an LP/CD case, I didn't realize those terms had fallen into disuse, what with no LP/CD/Collection boxes coming into contact with audiophiles. "Booklet" works too.

But, I was looking for the link to this info "The Channel Classics label has many 24/192 albums and they appear to be originally recorded in DSD and downconverted from DXD (24/352)"

Was it from their own website? Or did you collect it elsewhere(s)? I don't see that info in the pdf, or on their website, maybe you collected it by looking at each album birate options for download info?

Both Channel Classics and NativeDSD (same family) post fairly complete information about all the albums they sell. For example:

Channel Classics:

NativeDSD:

 

[mSpot]

But, I was looking for the link to this info "The Channel Classics label has many 24/192 albums and they appear to be originally recorded in DSD and downconverted from DXD (24/352)"

I was replying to @MOCKBA's question about where 24/192 music comes from, and whether they are merely upsampled from 24/96 original studio recordings. I only made a deduction from looking at a few 24/192 Channel Classic albums on Qobuz and I didn't mean it to be a definitive statement. I was primarily addressing @MOCKBA's question.

 

[hmscott]

One of the things Apple also released this week was a warning that Apple Airpods of all kinds cannot support Apple Lossless through Bluetooth, there isn't enough bandwidth, and there is a conversion from analog to digital and the reverse that undoes any lossless integrity. We all knew that though, right? Apple Warning To AirPods Max Users With Critical Apple Music Update (forbes.com)

But, then Apple dropped another bombshell - something I've been waiting for (though not from Apple!) - another wireless audio solution beyond BT:

“I’m being told that with a simple update at any time, Apple is working on allowing AirPods to work over AirPlay instead,” he revealed. “With AirPlay, your device would use Bluetooth to discover the AirPods as devices, but once connected it would then create a personal WiFi connection to stream the audio between devices. And boom! Just like that, AirPods are the first wireless headphones that stream lossless audio.”
Apple Issues Warning Affecting All Apple AirPods Users (forbes.com)

That would be something, for Apple to release new firmware for (some?) Airpods to support lossless wireless direct to their devices. Wow.

 

[Gackt]

Was trying to digest all the 25pages of this thread, but its a bit too much for me (just got in into hobby this 8 months ago).

I have Denon x1400h ( support ALAC 24-bit/96kH )

So when the lossless will become available, will I be able to airplay from my iPad to Denon? Considering that the AirPlay uses WIFI ( enough to deliver the data, I guess) and the Denon is capable of doing 24-bit/96kH (taken from their official website).

Or...

This route?

Macbook - DAC - Denon X1400H

 

[Zensō]

Was trying to digest all the 25pages of this thread, but its a bit too much for me (just got in into hobby this 8 months ago).

I have Denon x1400h ( support ALAC 24-bit/96kH )

So when the lossless will become available, will I be able to airplay from my iPad to Denon? Considering that the AirPlay uses WIFI ( enough to deliver the data, I guess) and the Denon is capable of doing 24-bit/96kH (taken from their official website).

Or...

This route?

Macbook - DAC - Denon X1400H

Either will work. The bitrate over Airplay will depend upon the receiving device, most likely 16/44.1.

 

[ericafterdark]

They are already that small. The DAC in the $9 dongle has a 24/192 DAC.

Do you have a source to confirm that statement?

 

[Zensō]

Do you have a source to confirm that statement?

I’m pretty sure the Apple dongle maxes out at 24/48:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/

 

[mSpot]

But, then Apple dropped another bombshell - something I've been waiting for (though not from Apple!) - another wireless audio solution beyond BT:

“I’m being told that with a simple update at any time, Apple is working on allowing AirPods to work over AirPlay instead,” he revealed. “With AirPlay, your device would use Bluetooth to discover the AirPods as devices, but once connected it would then create a personal WiFi connection to stream the audio between devices. And boom! Just like that, AirPods are the first wireless headphones that stream lossless audio.”
Apple Issues Warning Affecting All Apple AirPods Users (forbes.com)

I'm skeptical without an official Apple announcement. I can't find a single headphone that currently offers WiFi connection, and for good reason. Battery life would be an issue, especially on true wireless earbuds.

 

[hmscott]

I'm skeptical without an official Apple announcement. I can't find a single headphone that currently offers WiFi connection, and for good reason. Battery life would be an issue, especially on true wireless earbuds.

Even for BT fidelity vs battery depends on the implementation, as even BLE isn't normally used on most BT headphones due to low bandwidth = poor audio quality.

LDAC is great on Sony products, but on others it simply won't stay connected for me at 900kbps. It hasn't been a viable higher fidelity wireless solution for my use.

I'd like a wireless solution that doesn't compromise audio quality, and is reliable. It wouldn't hurt to have double the range or more than BT too. If it comes from Apple - it would likely be proprietary - but hopefully it would spur on others to also provide better wireless solutions and BT, audio quality and range limited as BT is currently.

Since they use Apple specific RF chips, it is conceivable that they could support something faster than Bluetooth. It might not be WiFi, but could be some proprietary protocol that can be supported via firmware update. We’ll have to wait and see..

Exactly, the terms the public knows about are all the press can use to describe the possible features. Everyone knows BT means Wireless Audio, and Wifi has more bandwidth = Hi-Res Audio for Airplay, for example.

The press aren't going to guess Apple's new Wireless Hi-Res name is, for example, "Apple Airplay for Hi-Res Audio". They aren't going to use that until Apple names it as such in a product release.

For now the terms they used project the idea just fine.

 

[voodooless]

I'm skeptical without an official Apple announcement. I can't find a single headphone that currently offers WiFi connection, and for good reason. Battery life would be an issue, especially on true wireless earbuds.

Since they use Apple specific RF chips, it is conceivable that they could support something faster than Bluetooth. It might not be WiFi, but could be some proprietary protocol that can be supported via firmware update. We’ll have to wait and see..

 

[oryan_dunn]

Do you have a source to confirm that statement?

This is the article that stated it was a 24/192 DAC
https://www.qobuz.com/be-nl/info/hi-res-guide/bancs-d-essai/we-ve-tried-it-the-apple-lightning178666

But Apple has stated it's a limited to 24/48. In another forum, someone speculated it was a limitation of the USB chip in the dongle, and that the DAC was capable of 24/192, but not as implemented in the dongle.

Since AAC is fine with me, the 24/48 is fine for my uses.

 

[oryan_dunn]

Since they use Apple specific RF chips, it is conceivable that they could support something faster than Bluetooth. It might not be WiFi, but could be some proprietary protocol that can be supported via firmware update. We’ll have to wait and see..

If this source is correct, the ultra wideband chip could be capable of hundreds of Mbps, plenty to get an ALAC stream to their headphones. No idea if it's possible internally to pass audio data via that connection, if so, would almost certainly require firmware updates in the headphones.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...ra-wideband-in-the-iphone-12-and-homepod-mini

 

[Jhify]

Maybe it all started with the Apple Lightning to 3.5mm dongle? Update: only up to 24/48k

How to play Hi-Res sound on iPhone or iPad (tipsmake.com)
View attachment 131626

"Although some iOS versions support FLAC, Apple Music applications cannot run FLAC files. There are a few reasons iOS devices can only play audio at 24 bit / 96kHz. First, this is the highest bit rate EarPods comes with iPhone support. Second, iTunes does not allow you to transfer files with higher bit rates to iPhone."

"You can overcome the lack of this headphone jack using Apple's Lightning to 3.5mm adapter[]. This adapter is now not only "exclusive" on the iPhone, you can use it to plug in any headset if you want. And it is capable of playing audio up to 24 bits / 192kHz." - Update: this is incorrect, the Apple dongle only goes up to 24/48k...

Amazon has the release date for the "Apple Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter" as November 1, 2018...was that the first 24/192k dongle with a DAC for iOS?

Maybe there was a "bright side" to Apple dropping the 3.5mm port on iPhones? Hi-Res Audio. It sure did take Apple a long time to improve Apple Music to catch up to their own hardware, 24/192k Hi-Res Apple Music is releasing 3 years later than their hardware!

Hmm, looks like the Fiio i1 came out in 2017... did the Apple dongle come out 1st or 2nd? Maybe Amazon had an earlier listing/release date?

"With the advent of the new Apple iPhone 7 and later models, they have slowly but surely been removing the 3.5mm audio socket, and forcibly moving people to use either Bluetooth or earphones/headphones which can be used straight from the lightning socket. This of course requires an adaptor or rewiring. FiiO saw this as an opportunity, and this year released the i1 – an Apple-certified micro DAC/amp with lightning port. "

Ahh, the FiiO i1 Specifications say it will need a firmware update to reach 24/192k, did it ever get that firmware update to 24/192k?:

"Highest Res Support (DAC)Up to 24/48, but fw may allow 24/192 or 96/24 PCM"

Was there a 24/192k dongle DAC released for iOS/iPhone/iPad before the Apple 3.5mm 24/192k 24/48k dongle? If that Apple dongle actually supports 24/192k? Update: no it doesn't, it only goes to 24/48k

An Apple 3.5mm dongle came out with the iPhone 7, was it Hi-Res 24/192? Update: Nope, only up to 24/48k.

iPhone 7 and high resolution audio - Apple Community

Nope, not with the iPhone 7 included Apple 3.5" dongle. "The iPhone 7 3.5mm dongle uses the iPhone 7 onboard Cirrus chip, it doesn't have its own internal DAC...and we can count out the Onkyo HF player + Audeze dongle DAC, as examples were still only 24/96k..."

Jan 28, 2018 2:57 PM in response to Phlac
"Well I can say this much, if you plug a DragonFly Red USB DAC into the lightning connector it will always show green no matter the sound source quality. The Dragonfly shows Green: 44100.0 Hz Blue: 48000.0 Hz Amber: 88200.0 Hz Magenta: 96000.0 Hz. I have never been able to get my iphone 7 to show anything other than green. Not sure if that is a limitation of the lightning connector or the Apple Camera USB-3 to lightning connector."

I'm still narrowing in on when actual 24/192k music really happened 1st on the iOS / iPhone.... any ideas?

Update: As per Apple their Lightning to 3.5mm dongle only goes up to 24/48k...About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support - Published Date: May 22, 2021

I guess the 24/48k dongle will do just fine for 99.99% of their customer. 16 bit is enough dynamic range to make you deaf with headphones and Hi Rez requires 10 times more bandwidth which is not practical when you're on the go. They probably intend HIrez for home use and won't update the dongle if there's no mass market for it. Or maybe with some marketing magic...