Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[amirm]

Yes I come from the IT world. I understand the differences between a $16,000 Cisco Nexus 9K QFSP core switch and don't whine that I can't get that in a $500 TP-Link.

Now if I pulled the cover off the Cisco and discovered TP-Link guts I would be upset as I'm not getting what I paid for.

I asked you about the power supply in a server and you change the topic to do different switches with different functionality and support?

Using your analogy anyway, I ask you if you open the Cisco router and found the same power supply as TP-Link with cheap caps, would that upset you or not?

Bottom line is really simple: you can't make excuses for a company that uses lower quality parts. It is not your place to tell us what should be good enough for us. You can decide what is good enough for you. But don't throw out arguments that don't hold water. This is a very simple part selection issue which Hypex can remedy with one email to their supplier. No redesign, no nothing. Yes, they would have another SKU to keep track of and they need to make a business case for that matter. As I said, they could do that or not. If they don't, they can expect me to highlight it in every teardown I do. And nothing you have said changes this.

 

[amirm]

So it is clear, this is my position:

1. Hypex makes excellent amplifiers and power supplies. When someone asks me what new amps they should buy, I point them to Hypex if they need a lot of power, or Purifi if they don't (and Benchmark).

2. Apollon build quality and attitude demonstrated here is first class. I won't hesitate to recommend their implementation of the amps I have tested and seen.

3. I suspect Hypex has done everything they can to make these module reliable and the risks of any failure -- cap or otherwise -- is very low.

4. My expectation, and that of just about any senior engineer, is not met with the capacitor part selection. There may be zero impact to reliability or something higher. I have no data to decide so I err on the side of paying more to get better parts.

5. We have done a ton here to promote Hypex products and companies that produce them. Anyone who thinks we are damaging the business potential for these companies doesn't know what he is talking about. Strong recommendations of the products are made while also recommending improvement in part selection.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I asked you about the power supply in a server and you change the topic to do different switches with different functionality and support?

Using your analogy anyway, I ask you if you open the Cisco router and found the same power supply as TP-Link with cheap caps, would that upset you or not?

Bottom line is really simple: you can't make excuses for a company that uses lower quality parts. It is not your place to tell us what should be good enough for us. You can decide what is good enough for you. But don't throw out arguments that don't hold water. This is a very simple part selection issue which Hypex can remedy with one email to their supplier. No redesign, no nothing. Yes, they would have another SKU to keep track of and they need to make a business case for that matter. As I said, they could do that or not. If they don't, they can expect me to highlight it in every teardown I do. And nothing you have said changes this.

@amirm I think it's good that you highlight it. It seems that these units are not built to last a lifetime, and your teardowns help us see that.

What I think is more baffling is the contention that Hypex should change this.

Firstly, we have seen here that the caps aren't the first things that fail on these amps. So changing them for better caps won't significantly lengthen the life of the product. That should be an argument enough IMHO.

Secondly, Hypex is just not competing with the Brystons and (insert high-quality boutique amp manufacter)s of the world. They are offering a cheap-as-chips product that performs on par with these brands, without the frills and without the decades-long guarantees of reliability and customer support.

Perhaps there's a market for a competitor to position itself somewhere in between Hypex and those boutique amp manufacturers, priced higher than Hypex but lower than Bryston et al, with similar support/warranties to the latter. It seems Apollon is already taking some steps to do this, in fact. Or perhaps Hypex itself could step into this position ultimately. But it's just clearly not what Hypex is about at this point, it would seem, which is frugal design choices, bargain prices, minimal support, and high volume.

 

[Jinjuku]

Using your analogy anyway, I ask you if you open the Cisco router and found the same power supply as TP-Link with cheap caps, would that upset you or not?

I'll have to crack one open. But you are still missing the point: The Apollo isn't being marketed, NOR priced, like the Cisco equivalent.

If you want a $7000 amp buy the $7000 amp. It's a $2400 amp, not a $7000 amp.

I agree on using better quality parts. $200 in caps will add another $600 - $800 in end user costs in the audiophile market.

 

[amirm]

I agree on using better quality parts. $200 in caps will add another $600 - $800 in end user costs in the audiophile market.

It is not $200 in BOM cost differential. It is in order of $50 to $70 which I translated into end user cost difference of $200. Remember, Apollon already provides a 500 Euro service to take out what is there and put in quality caps. And big part of that is labor which would not be the case for Hypex producing modules with better caps to start.

 

[March Audio]

Hypex have been building these SMPS modules for some 10-15 years and have sold tens of thousands of units.

To technicians/repairers: How many have you seen in your workshop for capacitor replacements?

@restorer-john, anyone?

Well considering everyone else is carrying on including Amir then so will I.

Indeed @Massimo

The problem with Amir (or Johns) general point is that he hasn't actually demonstrated that putting alleged "better" caps will lead to any statistically significant improvement in life or reliability.

I'm sorry but this is supposed to be a science forum.

When Rubycon themselves say all bets are off after 15 years then John parading 30 year old caps becomes irrelevant.

When Amir shows a blown "premium" cap in his (12 year old?) massively expensive Mark Levinson DAC, yet can't show one single Hypex failure who have hundreds of thousands of units out there, doesn't he realise that the non data driven "feeling in my water" approach about this topic and claims about component quality is not going to be convincing.

The situation is unique to every design. Generalising isn't appropriate or useful.

I have no problem with Amir passing personal opinion in reviews. Its fine to say that he would like to see "better quality" caps because it gives him personally better confidence. However without data he can't pass comment on the actual reliability or life. As such he needs to acknowledge, and should caveat any personal opinions, with that fact. That he has no information to conclude that in any particular design this would lead to more reliability or longer life.

 

[March Audio]

@amirm I think it's good that you highlight it. It seems that these units are not built to last a lifetime, and your teardowns help us see that.

What I think is more baffling is the contention that Hypex should change this.

Firstly, we have seen here that the caps aren't the first things that fail on these amps. So changing them for better caps won't significantly lengthen the life of the product. That should be an argument enough IMHO.

Secondly, Hypex is just not competing with the Brystons and (insert high-quality boutique amp manufacter)s of the world. They are offering a cheap-as-chips product that performs on par with these brands, without the frills and without the decades-long guarantees of reliability and customer support.

Perhaps there's a market for a competitor to position itself somewhere in between Hypex and those boutique amp manufacturers, priced higher than Hypex but lower than Bryston et al, with similar support/warranties to the latter. It seems Apollon is already taking some steps to do this, in fact. Or perhaps Hypex itself could step into this position ultimately. But it's just clearly not what Hypex is about at this point, it would seem, which is frugal design choices, bargain prices, minimal support, and high volume.

Can we have a 2 likes button?

 

[AudioJester]

You know, I tell my buddies that Audio is a a nice relaxing hobby....

 

[March Audio]

It is not $200 in BOM cost differential. It is in order of $50 to $70 which I translated into end user cost difference of $200. Remember, Apollon already provides a 500 Euro service to take out what is there and put in quality caps. And big part of that is labor which would not be the case for Hypex producing modules with better caps to start.

Then its an extra $200 for unknown/unproven benefit.

In fact IMO all the available evidence indicates that for these particular products it is of no benefit.

I have plenty of customers who talk to me about price, where its on the edge of affordability for them, and that extra may exclude them.

 

[Jinjuku]

I asked you about the power supply in a server and you change the topic to do different switches with different functionality and support?

I can get Cisco that have x86 service modules with storage. Effectively a multi-armed server.

If I paid $16,000 and had desktop parts in it I would have every reason to be upset.

If I paid $2400 and had desktop parts in it... It would be about what I would expect for $2400.

Tomato Tomato

 

[pjug]

Then its an extra $200 for unknown/unproven benefit.

I don't know if would be expected to make a difference or not, but saving $200 up front might be worth it anyway if it costs $400 to replace the power supply. Surely replacements will be available for a long time when so many nCore amps have been sold.

 

[RayDunzl]

4. My expectation, and that of just about any senior engineer, is not met with the capacitor part selection. There may be zero impact to reliability or something higher. I have no data to decide so I err on the side of paying more to get better parts.

What does it take to test a capacitor with the aim being to destroy the lesser member of the test, leaving the better unscathed?

 

[amirm]

The problem with Amir (or Johns) general point is that he hasn't actually demonstrated that putting alleged "better" caps will lead to any statistically significant improvement in life or reliability.

I'm sorry but this is supposed to be a science forum.

This is an engineering, manufacturing and design issue. It has little to do with "science." Let's reserve using big word arguments for others.

If you don't properly ground your amps, are you going to demand that I show you some electrocuted before you properly ground it?

So no, it is not my job or John's to tell you what is obvious and understood in design circles. Cheaper caps can result in lower reliability. You want to prove they don't, then be my guest. But don't run off with negative logic there.

 

[PeteL]

Then its an extra $200 for unknown/unproven benefit.

In fact IMO all the available evidence indicates that for these particular products it is of no benefit.

I have plenty of customers who talk to me about price, where its on the edge of affordability for them, and that extra may exclude them.

Sorry, but you keep asking the same question, over, and over, and over, and then again, but I've read the whole thread, and no one said there was a proven benefit, not John, not Amir. All they ever said is that they prefer to see premium components in a hi-fidelity product because they are likely to fail earlier, and they'd be ready to pay more for this peace of mind. The thing is it's not about the number, it's not about what is a reasonable lifespan, it's not about, something will fail first anyway, not about in 10 years I'll want something else anyway, Bottom line is, a POWER AMP, as long as the parts are available, it's fixable! And 100% of them, if you keep fixing them instead of disposing of it, at some point will need some recapping, wheater it's in 20 25 or 30 years don't make it less true. If this first recapping job happen earlier with sus'con than with Rubycon, well they are RIGHT, no one has asked anymore than this, no one said the amps are not reliable, no one tried to say it's not a quality product, and it doesn't have to apply to everybody. Some people would be willing to pay more for better caps, I don't see what's all this fuss, they prefer to see good caps in the products they chose to buy, why is it such a big deal?

 

[Jinjuku]

Sorry, but you keep asking the same question, over, and over, and over, and then again, but I've read the whole thread, and no one said there was a proven benefit, not John, not Amir. All they ever said is that they prefer to see premium components in a hi-fidelity product because they are likely to fail earlier, and they'd be ready to pay more for this peace of mind. The thing is it's not about the number, it's not about what is a reasonable lifespan, it's not about, something will fail first anyway, not about in 10 years I'll want something else anyway, Bottom line is, a POWER AMP, as long as the parts are available, it's fixable! And 100% of them, if you keep fixing them instead of disposing of it, at some point will need some recapping, wheater it's in 20 25 or 30 years don't make it less true. If this first recapping job happen earlier with sus'con than with Rubycon, well they are RIGHT, no one has asked anymore than this, no one said the amps are not reliable, no one tried to say it's not a quality product, and it doesn't have to apply to everybody. Some people would be willing to pay more for better caps, I don't see what's all this fuss, they prefer to see good caps in the products they chose to buy, why is it such a big deal?

They can ask McDonalds to use a higher quality cut of beef in their hamburgers. I'll be the last to disagree with the overall sentiment.

But they are occupying a certain market segment with a cross roads of price and performance. 10 or 20 year longevity may not be in the mix or their goals.

Apollon already offers a CAP service. So what's the issue again?

What person goes on a rant about a McD hamburger as it compares to something from Ruth's Chris?

 

[restorer-john]

If you don't properly ground your amps, are you going to demand that I show you some electrocuted before you properly ground it?

Alan actually doesn't properly ground/safety earth his amplifiers. He's a proponent of Class ii, double insulated. But he does take safety very seriously- his wiring is absolutely top notch from the pictures I have seen and much better than a lot of companies who should know better.

don't see what's all this fuss, they prefer to see good caps in the products they chose to buy, why is it such a big deal?

Because they aren't used in the amplifiers he sells. Simple. Alan has to defend his position. It's the English spirit of fight until the last man is standing, or go down with the ship type stuff. Admirable in a way, but somewhat amusing at the same time.

They can ask McDonalds to use a higher quality cut of beef in their hamburgers.

So Hypex is the amplification equivalent of fast food? I don't think so. They are proper restaurant priced. And yes, the buying public demanded better meat, better fries and better options here in Australia from McDonalds and they stepped up bigtime as they were losing market share hand over fist to quality burger sellers. So advocating for better quality ingredients does work.

But at moment, it's the Hypex way or the highway. That may change for the better. I hope so. Then I'll have nothing to complain about...

 

[amirm]

They can ask McDonalds to use a higher quality cut of beef in their hamburgers. I'll be the last to disagree with the overall sentiment.

No. We are asking that McDonald's pay better attention to safety standards so we don't get sick from eating their burgers.

 

[pjug]

But at moment, it's the Hypex way or the highway.

Not really. For example you can get nCore from ATI with linear power supply and 7 year warranty.

 

[restorer-john]

so we don't get sick from eating their burgers.

You don't really eat their burgers Amir! Do you? *shocked*

 

[Jinjuku]

No. We are asking that McDonald's pay better attention to safety standards so we don't get sick from eating their burgers.

No you haven't. I haven't seen any recent post from you around any safety concerns. It's all been about longevity/reliability without having any idea of what the pattern failure or rates have been.

Again I think an outfit like Apollon or March have a golden opportunity in charging 4X the price, upgrading components, and offering a 7 or 10 year warranty against defect.