Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[restorer-john]

I have been working in electronics for decades so please don't take the "experience" line with me.

If you can't provide any evidence of what you say then just admit it and stop peddling your agenda.

I see failed components. You see brand new components.

Who is more qualified to comment on long term reliability? Tell me.

Repeatedly calling for evidence (in the form of failed Su'scons) is like asking a mechanic to show you all the worn out bearings from a particular manfacturer. Does he keep them in a box waiting for someone like you to demand to see them? Would you tell that mechanic he doesn't know what he's talking about if he can't show you all those old failed bearings? No. That would be disrespectful and likely get you thrown out of his shop. He replaces them with a better product and puts the failed component in the garbage- where it belongs and makes a mental note to never use those brands that give him the most trouble. He tells other mechanics and when he sees those bearings, he knows it's only a matter of time before they too, fail and make a big mess.

You have an agenda. That is to sell new Hypex amplifiers. Good on you and I'm happy they are selling well for you. I want you to succeed. What I'm not happy about is the constant attempts to silence people who know a lot more about capacitor failures from lower quality manufacturers than you do. Anytime Hypex or Purifi is mentioned, you feel the need to jump in and correct or set the record "straight" according to your agenda. It's really wrong and threatens the objectivity, independence, and accuracy of this site.

I have no agenda other than the truth, because I'm not selling a thing. I want buyers of HiFi to have it last for decades. Have it handed to their kids like the ASR member who just posted about his father's Yamaha A-1 amplifier bought in 1980 which he inherited after his father died. That is what long term reliability is about, Alan.

Put pressure on Hypex to use better components. That is what a responsible manufacturer would do.

 

[March Audio]

I see failed components. You see brand new components.

Who is more qualified to comment on long term reliability? Tell me.

Repeatedly calling for evidence (in the form of failed Su'scons) is like asking a mechanic to show you all the worn out bearings from a particular manfacturer. Does he keep them in a box waiting for someone like you to demand to see them? Would you tell that mechanic he doesn't know what he's talking about if he can't show you all those old failed bearings? No. That would be disrespectful and likely get you thrown out of his shop. He replaces them with a better product and puts the failed component in the garbage- where it belongs and makes a mental note to never use those brands that give him the most trouble. He tells other mechanics and when he sees those bearings, he knows it's only a matter of time before they too, fail and make a big mess.

You have an agenda. That is to sell new Hypex amplifiers. Good on you and I'm happy they are selling well for you. I want you to succeed. What I'm not happy about is the constant attempts to silence people who know a lot more about capacitor failures from lower quality manufacturers than you do. Anytime Hypex or Purifi is mentioned, you feel the need to jump in and correct or set the record "straight" according to your agenda. It's really wrong and threatens the objectivity, independence, and accuracy of this site.

I have no agenda other than the truth, because I'm not selling a thing. I want buyers of HiFi to have it last for decades. Have it handed to their kids like the guy who just posted to me about his father's Yamaha A-1 amplifier bought in 1980 which he inherited after his father died. That is what long term reliability is about, Alan.

Put pressure on Hypex to use better components. That is what a responsible manufacturer would do.

I'm not going to respond to you on this any more John.

No you are absolutely not more qualified to comment on this subject.

You are being disruptive just repeating yourself and I wont derail the thread any further by responding to your claims that you clearly can't support.

No one cares that you think the only good hifi is that which was made in the 1970s. You seem to be unable to comprehend the bleedin obvious that for every antique 1970s amp you have personally "rescued" there will be literally thousands of units that failed and ended up in land fill.

Also refer to @Bruce Morgen comments as a veteran electronics repairer.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pex-nc2k-amplifier-teardown.16920/post-548383

As a veteran of the audio repair business, I feel qualified to remind everyone involved in the endless cap quality debate that repair folks see only a small fraction of the gear in use, and for every significant failure due to a cap or caps going bad, there may well be hundreds or even thousands of the same model that provide decades of trouble-free service with exactly the same cap or caps.

John your personal and very limited experience is irrelevant in terms of judging this issue. This is a science based forum, your anecdotes count for nought.

End of conversation John.

 

[Jinjuku]

I see failed components. You see brand new components.

Who is more qualified to comment on long term reliability? Tell me.

Repeatedly calling for evidence (in the form of failed Su'scons) is like asking a mechanic to show you all the worn out bearings from a particular manfacturer. Does he keep them in a box waiting for someone like you to demand to see them? Would you tell that mechanic he doesn't know what he's talking about if he can't show you all those old failed bearings? No. That would be disrespectful and likely get you thrown out of his shop. He replaces them with a better product and puts the failed component in the garbage- where it belongs and makes a mental note to never use those brands that give him the most trouble. He tells other mechanics and when he sees those bearings, he knows it's only a matter of time before they too, fail and make a big mess.

You have an agenda. That is to sell new Hypex amplifiers. Good on you and I'm happy they are selling well for you. I want you to succeed. What I'm not happy about is the constant attempts to silence people who know a lot more about capacitor failures from lower quality manufacturers than you do. Anytime Hypex or Purifi is mentioned, you feel the need to jump in and correct or set the record "straight" according to your agenda. It's really wrong and threatens the objectivity, independence, and accuracy of this site.

I have no agenda other than the truth, because I'm not selling a thing. I want buyers of HiFi to have it last for decades. Have it handed to their kids like the ASR member who just posted about his father's Yamaha A-1 amplifier bought in 1980 which he inherited after his father died. That is what long term reliability is about, Alan.

Put pressure on Hypex to use better components. That is what a responsible manufacturer would do.

I've just got to say this. You have always just seemed a bit 'off'.

 

[restorer-john]

I've just got to say this. You have always just seemed a bit 'off'.

10,861 likes say otherwise.

Like many others here, we've seen this business go through cycles of truth and cycles of outright deception. Right now, we are in a group-think driven "truth" where facts, knowledge and experience are pushed aside by noisy self interest agendas. Those "truths" will change faster than you can say your name when something new and better obsoletes the current flavor-of-the-month.

I'm under no illusions about that.

 

[March Audio]

10,861 likes say otherwise.

Like many others here, we've seen this business go through cycles of truth and cycles of outright deception. Right now, we are in a group-think driven "truth" where facts, knowledge and experience are pushed aside by noisy self interest agendas. Those "truths" will change faster than you can say your name when something new and better obsoletes the current flavor-of-the-month.

I'm under no illusions about that.

Sorry I have to respond to this

WHAT FACTS?

You are just presenting personal anecdotes.

Your agenda/reasoning is given away by your comments:

Those "truths" will change faster than you can say your name when something new and better obsoletes the current flavor-of-the-month.

We understand the fact that you dont like that things move on, its been abundantly obvious in your posts over the long term. That's fine but it doesnt justify your erroneous claims.

 

[CDMC]

You might want to consider that those "good reasons" -- like the "good reasons" they used discrete-component op amps on their buffer boards -- may well be as much or more about marketing to folks with certain concerns than substantive benefit to customers in general. Just a thought -- I obviously have no way of knowing a manufacturer's actual motivations in that regard.

I agree, they want to have options for their customers. There is a demand for units with these options and like a good business they cater to it. They also offer less expensive choices for those of us that want a plane jane. Seems like a win win.

 

[CDMC]

10,861 likes say otherwise.

Like many others here, we've seen this business go through cycles of truth and cycles of outright deception. Right now, we are in a group-think driven "truth" where facts, knowledge and experience are pushed aside by noisy self interest agendas. Those "truths" will change faster than you can say your name when something new and better obsoletes the current flavor-of-the-month.

I'm under no illusions about that.

Should we let John in on the like thing?

 

[CDMC]

Is it just me, or do the connections and connector from amp board to speaker terminals look a bit under-sized for the average audiophile?

Yes, but the average audiophile is making up for something. Fortunately, everyone here is adequate enough we don’t have to make up for it with oversized cables.

 

[AudioJester]

Oh dear, this has turned into a pointless Presidential debate...

 

[restorer-john]

I'm not going to respond to you on this any more John.

Great Alan, I'm bored with your vain attempts to discredit people who don't agree with your single minded vision. You can duck and weave all you like, it doesn't work and just makes you look amateurish. This interaction does you no favours and certainly is unlikely to aid in selling more of your amplifiers. Apollon is the winner here (remember it is his amplifier in this thread, not yours), he gets reflected glory simply by being reasonable and not personally attacking me or my credentials. LOL.

End of conversation John.

OK. Great. But are you 100% sure?

Sorry I have to respond to this

I knew it, you couldn't let it go! And you're at it again, restrospectively editing your posts 3 1/2 hours after the fact. Standard modus operandi to edit, re-phrase and change your posts hours after people have responded.

I'm one of the few who will not be steamrolled, bullied or belittled by you and your vision for Hypex world domination. They are just an amplifier module company selling to integrators and DIY guys. They are not saving the world or curing cancer.

So if you can let it go this time, for real, and get on with something productive, so can I. How about it?

 

[Universal Cereal Bus]

Oh dear, this has turned into a pointless Presidential debate...

Australia has a Prime Minister, not a President

 

[PeteL]

Strange Question.

I know, it’s a question no one can answer, on purpose, to illustrate the futility of the debate. Telling people that would like to see Hypex use better Caps that their dissatisfaction is unreasonable based on the fact that they can’t prove that the cheap ones does the job just as well, warrant this question, That was my point of the debate, if no one knows for sure that it would make a difference in this specific product, no one know for sure that it won’t make a difference. they are both opinions. there is not one »factual » side and one based on « anechdotes » the data is just not there to confirm any of these claims, on both side knowledgable people give their informed opinion on the matter, just opinions.In both cases these opinions are based on a background of expertise and knowledge, but in both case there cannot be solid evidence to be appllicable to the specific product. there can be no winner.

 

[samsa]

I know, it’s a question no one can answer, on purpose, to illustrate the futility of the debate. Telling people that would like to see Hypex use better Caps that their dissatisfaction is unreasonable based on the fact that they can’t prove that the cheap ones does the job just as well, warrant this question, That was my point of the debate, if no one knows for sure that it would make a difference in this specific product, no one know for sure that it won’t make a difference. they are both opinions. there is not one »factual » side and one based on « anechdotes » the data is just not there to confirm any of these claims, on both side knowledgable people give their informed opinion on the matter, just opinions.

Sorry, but I disagree.

Given the manufacturer's rated lifetime, and the actual operating conditions of the capacitors in question, one can predict the mean lifetime of the capacitors in these Hypex modules. That's not a matter of opinion.

What is a matter of opinion is what the mean lifetime should be. @restorer-john thinks that, for a TOTL product, like the one that is the subject of this thread, the mean lifetime should be 50 years or more. @March Audio thinks it perfectly reasonable for the mean lifetime to be much shorter.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the latter point-of-view. Whereas Class AB is pretty mature, the technology of Class D is still advancing. 10 years from now, I expect to be able to replace the Hypex amplifier that I currently own with a much superior unit for a price smaller than Apollon would charge today for upgrading the capacitors on the Hypex amplifiers they sell.

But your opinion could differ on this ...

 

[March Audio]

Great Alan, I'm bored with your vain attempts to discredit people who don't agree with your single minded vision. You can duck and weave all you like, it doesn't work and just makes you look amateurish. This interaction does you no favours and certainly is unlikely to aid in selling more of your amplifiers. Apollon is the winner here (remember it is his amplifier in this thread, not yours), he gets reflected glory simply by being reasonable and not personally attacking me or my credentials. LOL.



OK. Great. But are you 100% sure?



I knew it, you couldn't let it go! And you're at it again, restrospectively editing your posts 3 1/2 hours after the fact. Standard modus operandi to edit, re-phrase and change your posts hours after people have responded.

I'm one of the few who will not be steamrolled, bullied or belittled by you and your vision for Hypex world domination. They are just an amplifier module company selling to integrators and DIY guys. They are not saving the world or curing cancer.

So if you can let it go this time, for real, and get on with something productive, so can I. How about it?

John I have asked the mods to talk to you about your deliberate on going provocation and refusal to accept and move on from indisputable points. This isnt personal but you are disrupting the thread with your repeated erroneous assertions.

 

[restorer-john]

@restorer-john thinks that, for a TOTL product, like the one that is the subject of this thread, the mean lifetime should be 50 years or more.

With respect, I never mentioned 50 years as a reasonable or expected lifetime, someone else came up with that wild number.

However, there are plenty of amplifiers heading into their fifth decade which have had no failures, and test as new, in mine and my 87yo father's private collection. Of course there are pieces that have required repair- just as we need medical attention in our later years...

Perhaps the Hypex modules will still be going strong in 20, 30 or 40 years. I hope so. Alan and I will be unable to wield a soldering iron by then, so I guess it doesn't matter. And Hypex might be making solar powered airconditioning systems for Mars terraforming pioneers.

Consider a company like Bryston. They guaranteed their gear for 20 years. Would they have considered such a guarantee if they had not used components of the absolute highest standard? You know the answer.

 

[March Audio]

Sorry, but I disagree.

Given the manufacturer's rated lifetime, and the actual operating conditions of the capacitors in question, one can predict the mean lifetime of the capacitors in these Hypex modules. That's not a matter of opinion.

What is a matter of opinion is what the mean lifetime should be. @restorer-john thinks that, for a TOTL product, like the one that is the subject of this thread, the mean lifetime should be 50 years or more. @March Audio thinks it perfectly reasonable for the mean lifetime to be much shorter.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the latter point-of-view. Whereas Class AB is pretty mature, the technology of Class D is still advancing. 10 years from now, I expect to be able to replace the Hypex amplifier that I currently own with a much superior unit for a price smaller than Apollon would charge today for upgrading the capacitors on the Hypex amplifiers they sell.

But your opinion could differ on this ...

My point is actually less about what is an appropriate life for a product and more about the assertions. implied and direct, that have been made that these products are inherently unreliable or have an inappropriate short life as a result.

As a manufacturer no I am not going to let Johns ignorance and misinformed opinion of the subject (and long standing railing against anything class d) misinform the wider readership without rebuke.

 

[March Audio]

With respect, I never mentioned 50 years as a reasonable or expected lifetime, someone else came up with that wild number.

However, there are plenty of amplifiers heading into their fifth decade which have had no failures, and test as new, in mine and my 87yo father's private collection. Of course there are pieces that have required repair- just as we need medical attention in our later years...

Perhaps the Hypex modules will still be going strong in 20, 30 or 40 years. I hope so. Alan and I will be unable to wield a soldering iron by then, so I guess it doesn't matter. And Hypex might be making solar powered airconditioning systems for Mars terraforming pioneers.

Consider a company like Bryston. They guaranteed their gear for 20 years. Would they have considered such a guarantee if they had not used components of the absolute highest standard? You know the answer.

Simple question John.

Can you please tell me the life of a Hypex amp? The MTBF.

John, are you really that naïve that you think Brystons warranty is based on anything but a marketing decision? Do you actually think Bryston amps dont fail?

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Sorry, but I disagree.

Given the manufacturer's rated lifetime, and the actual operating conditions of the capacitors in question, one can predict the mean lifetime of the capacitors in these Hypex modules. That's not a matter of opinion.
...

The thing is, we can't know those "actual operating conditions" unless we can see the schematic, complete with the voltages involved, and measure the operating temperature of the module, which can vary from application to application (e.g. thermal characteristics of the enclosure and the heat generated by other occupants of that enclosure, e.g. the SMPS) and environment to environment (e.g. the ambient temperature of the listening room and the location of the equipment within that room and in relation other pieces of gear).

 

[Vasr]

John, are you really that naïve that you think Brystons warranty is based on anything but a marketing decision? Do you actually think Bryston amps dont fail?

With all due respect you keep putting straw points in people's mouth to argue.

The warranty determination for ANY manufacturer is based on the expected (mean) reliability of their equipment (and hence the expected cost of repair/replacement) as well as competitive edge for increased sales if and when necessary as part of their pricing model (the marketing decision). Those aren't independent of each other.

A long warranty does not imply that the units will never fail or even that none of them will fail within the warranty period. It just means they have a calculated expectation that not too many will fail within warranty period to offset any increase in sales they will get from offering a longer warranty including good will.

Every manufacturer does this whether it is 2 years, 5 years or 20 years. So your questions are meaningless straw arguments.

Didn't I read somewhere that you had increased the warranty period for your products based on their field reliability. That is a marketing decision as well as a decision based on their reliability. Bryston does the same. They would be foolish to offer a 20 year warranty if too many of their units would keep failing within the 20 years. Doesn't mean none of the their units will fail and some of them may even fail early. It is the mean/distribution that matters for setting warranty periods.

I think you know all of the above because that is what you do in your business, so I don't get this silly arguing.

 

[StefaanE]

like any man-made appliance, they will also fail at some point or the other

Anything on this planet fails at some point. Most living things have a very short life expectancy, and they actually are self-repairing. It’s very difficult to make products so that none ever fail, and a couple of percent failures over 20 years for an affordable product is a sound business strategy. I’m with March here, but also with John, because I would like my product to last forever .