Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[March Audio]

This is an engineering, manufacturing and design issue. It has little to do with "science." Let's reserve using big word arguments for others.

If you don't properly ground your amps, are you going to demand that I show you some electrocuted before you properly ground it?

So no, it is not my job or John's to tell you what is obvious and understood in design circles. Cheaper caps can result in lower reliability. You want to prove they don't, then be my guest. But don't run off with negative logic there.

...and engineering, manufacturing and design are not based on scientific work and the scientific process ???????????

Including the comments and conclusions drawn and published here?

Sorry Amir but you its you thats running the reverse logic.

Your comments here are actually confirming the position and point I have been making all along. Yes this is absolutely an engineering, manufacturing and design issue which is precisely why you cant generalise in the way you are.

Lets look at your ML DAC. How much did it cost again?

Why did this premium brand cap fail?

I would say that it was most likely to be due to the fact that is sat right next to two power resistors and a power transistor / voltage regulator. These components by definition will be hot. Maybe very hot. Elevated temperature = shorter life.

So are you now going to argue that this was the caps fault? That it is a shit cap? Or are you going to accept its just bad design choices?

Now if this had been a "lower" brand cap, its clear from this thread and your comments above that your reaction would have been to blame the cap. Thats obviously wrong.

As I keep saying, you cant generalise.

 

[Jinjuku]

So Hypex is the amplification equivalent of fast food?

No, I'm not a whiner that is deluded about what I get with a $2 burger vs a $10 burger.

 

[March Audio]

No you haven't. I haven't seen any recent post from you around any safety concerns. It's all been about longevity/reliability without having any idea of what the pattern failure or rates have been.

Again I think an outfit like Apollon or March have a golden opportunity in charging 4X the price, upgrading components, and offering a 7 or 10 year warranty against defect.

The general market as it is for this type of product doesnt want that. It also doesnt sit well me me because its just taking advantage of peoples lack of understanding.

 

[restorer-john]

No you haven't. I haven't seen any recent post from you around any safety concerns. It's all been about longevity/reliability.

@amirm was using a metaphorically similar example to illustrate the folly of Alan's repeated requests to see a dead capacitor. His logic is, if Amir or I don't have a dead Hypex supplied capacitor to show him right now when he demands it, then it didn't happen and won't ever happen. It's a puerile argument lacking in sophistication.

 

[amirm]

Why did this premium brand cap fail?

It was placed right next to the hot voltage regulator which killed it. You will see me remarking about this in other teardowns: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iit-lyr-hybrid-tube-headphone-amplifier.2480/

Tubes generate heat and can shorten the life of those caps.

Ironically Schiit uses proper Panasonic caps:

 

[restorer-john]

The general market as it is for this type of product doesnt want that. It also doesnt sit well me me because its just taking advantage of peoples lack of understanding.

I think you may be surprised what the market will bear when they are told the benefits of better components. The Japanese built their entire domestic HiFi scene (all 125 million of them) on the very best components in the best products. The fact that we only saw a tiny part of it proves they felt the rest of the world were less discerning.

I think that is changing again.

 

[March Audio]

It was placed right next to the hot voltage regulator which killed it. You will see me remarking about this in other teardowns: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iit-lyr-hybrid-tube-headphone-amplifier.2480/

Tubes generate heat and can shorten the life of those caps.

Ironically Schiit uses proper Panasonic caps:

OK then, do you agree that cap failure modes are just as much to do with design and implementation as they are to do with the fundamental quality of the cap?

Yes or no?

 

[March Audio]

I think you may be surprised what the market will bear when they are told the benefits of better components.

.

What benefits?

 

[amirm]

OK then, do you agree that cap failure modes are just as much to with design and implementation as they are to do with the fundamental quality of the cap?

Yes or no?

Many things impact the lifetime of an electronic product. Best in class products follow best in class practices. Safest design here would be high quality parts as far away from heat generating components as possible. Doing half of this will get you in trouble as in my case. Someone like you would have said, "oh, this is a high-end Mark Levinson DAC. Surely they have designed it to not fail." Well, fail it did because it violated standard practice for high quality design. Same is true of what we are saying about Hypex amps and power supplies. Assurances from you means nothing. It is some general state of hope and prayer with no value.

 

[restorer-john]

What benefits?

More profit to you. Peace of mind to your customers and longer likely lifetime.

Seriously, why don't you trial a limited run "Special Edition" of one of your popular models with better caps? Put a nice little 'SE' gold badge on the front. Rework is easy enough and you'll have to wear the warranty if Hypex cut you out, but it would be a good test of the market. Charge accordingly, and if it's a success, feed that info back to Hypex.

Think of the special edition tweaks Marantz made to amplifiers and CD players. It was an enormous success, highly profitable and the products were and still are, highly regarded.

 

[March Audio]

Many things impact the lifetime of an electronic product. Best in class products follow best in class practices. Safest design here would be high quality parts as far away from heat generating components as possible. Doing half of this will get you in trouble as in my case. Someone like you would have said, "oh, this is a high-end Mark Levinson DAC. Surely they have designed it to not fail." Well, fail it did because it violated standard practice for high quality design. Same is true of what we are saying about Hypex amps and power supplies.

Assurances from you means nothing. It is some general state of hope and prayer with no value.

Sorry Amir I disagree.

Standard/good design practice is to use appropriate components for the job and minimise cost. This does *not* equal using more expensive components that you personally feel are better for no good reason.

Second problem with your statement is that you are assuming that the caps fitted are somehow unsuitable, lower reliability or will provide an inappropriately short life without evidence.

Without evidence assurances from you equally mean nothing and are of no value.

With the greatest of respect Amir, and I do mean that, you are fundamentally wrong on this one.

 

[March Audio]

More profit to you. Peace of mind to your customers and longer likely lifetime.

Seriously, why don't you trial a limited run "Special Edition" of one of your popular models with better caps? Put a nice little 'SE' gold badge on the front. Rework is easy enough and you'll have to wear the warranty if Hypex cut you out, but it would be a good test of the market. Charge accordingly, and if it's a success, feed that info back to Hypex.

Think of the special edition tweaks Marantz made to amplifiers and CD players. It was an enormous success, highly profitable and the products were and still are, highly regarded.

Well this isnt about my profits, but as mentioned it doesnt sit well with me charging people for things that have unproven benefit. This is why I dont offer "boutique discrete" buffers or things like dumb ass voodoo mains cables/interconnects

Of course I indulge with "marketing" , this is a business to make money but still...

As I mentioned earlier, this cap debate appears to be a perception issue for some rather than a real problem.

 

[samsa]

Well this isnt about my profits, but as mentioned it doesnt sit well with me charging people for things that have unproven benefit. This is why I dont offer "boutique discrete" buffers.

That's actually something I respect.

I'm sure there'd be a lucrative market for Hypex amplifiers, fitted with "audiophile quality" capacitors. That you don't go down that road is, IMHO, a sign of integrity.

 

[restorer-john]

Well, fail it did because it violated standard practice for high quality design.

Pioneer had a habit of putting linear voltage regulators for the power amp front ends in the centre and underneath the main chassis of their biggest amplifiers and receivers in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The capacitors, transistors and components literally desoldered themselves and charred the phenolic PCBs. They all outlasted their warranties but the caps took a horrible beating, and they all had pretty much failed at around the 10-15 year mark.

The SX-1980 (their biggest and best) at USD$1250 in 1979 is now one of the most collectible and expensive super receivers in the world. You will pay >US$5,000 for a good one. I have rebuilt a number of them and even a new designed entire regulator board is available to keep them going. It alone will cost you $500.

So even TOTL stuff can have glaring design problems, things we look at with the benefit of our collective hindsight and experience. That is what we are doing here with the low grade capacitors- we have seen it all before and know what will happen.

That some people cannot see that or choose not to acknowledge it, is disappointing.

 

[March Audio]

That's actually something I respect.

I'm sure there'd be a lucrative market for Hypex amplifiers, fitted with "audiophile quality" capacitors. That you don't go down that road is, IMHO, a sign of integrity.

I dont criticise other businesses for doing this, they are there trying to make money and we of course also indulge in some marketing, but I do try to be as honest as possible about it.

 

[oldsysop]

A Bryston amp is considerably more expensive for them to produce as the entire design is custom. They did not buy a couple of modules and put them in a lightweight box.

This !

 

[March Audio]

It was placed right next to the hot voltage regulator which killed it. You will see me remarking about this in other teardowns: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iit-lyr-hybrid-tube-headphone-amplifier.2480/

Ironically Schiit uses proper Panasonic caps:

Indeed, absolutely bad design choice.

However what I think you meant to say was:

Ironically Schiit uses proper Panasonic caps

 

[Massimo]

This is an engineering, manufacturing and design issue. It has little to do with "science." Let's reserve using big word arguments for others.

If you don't properly ground your amps, are you going to demand that I show you some electrocuted before you properly ground it?

So no, it is not my job or John's to tell you what is obvious and understood in design circles. Cheaper caps can result in lower reliability. You want to prove they don't, then be my guest. But don't run off with negative logic there.

Oh dear. My expensive Yamaha A/V receiver does not have a ground connection to mains. Are you saying there is risk of electrocution?

 

[amirm]

Oh dear. My expensive Yamaha A/V receiver does not have a ground connection to mains. Are you saying there is risk of electrocution?

No. Those units are designed to be double insulated and certified to be safe as such. I was referring to a device that is not double insulated and the internal safety lug. See that in this teardown:

There are a lot of DIY type amps out there without this kind of proper grounding (or double insulation).

 

[restorer-john]

Oh dear. My expensive Yamaha A/V receiver does not have a ground connection to mains. Are you saying there is risk of electrocution?

With anything connected to the mains, there is a risk of electrocution. However, the risk is extremely low. Double insulation is safe when properly implemented, just as an earthed chassis is also safe.

Both methods have been used in audio for decades. Each has certain benefits. Suffice it to say, both the Apollon and the March products discussed in this thread appear to be both excellent in their cable dress, insulation and earthing/insulation. Yamaha has for many years (since about 1981) double insulated their products. Prior to that, it was all earthed.