Apollon Audio complaints

[goryu]

It's not the delay so much as the lack of quality communication, the rather sketchy replies and shipping info, and the apparent label games that are the problem. Most people understand the logistical issues, holiday schedules, parts shortages, etc. I would try honest, timely replies. The delays are the least of it.

 

[kemmler3D]

It's not the delay so much as the lack of quality communication, the rather sketchy replies and shipping info, and the apparent label games that are the problem. Most people understand the logistical issues, holiday schedules, parts shortages, etc. I would try honest, timely replies. The delays are the least of it.

The label games are tough from the manufacturers point of view. You can find bad reviews in both directions because people don't know about or understand tariffs, (and blame the shipper instead of their local customs agent) or because attempts to save the recipient money go wrong.

 

[LunaTempesta]

Funny how Audiophonics for example (direct competitor) seem to manage shipping times of a few days.

Of course I don't have detailed insights into either companies' workings, but it would seem having a few specimen of your regular products always ready to ship, and NOT waiting to build them only after an order, pays off. It's not that hard to do. Every company I've been to and/or worked at (always electronic industry products) worked that way.

It also sounds kinda odd hearing about "oh especially in peak times we're a little slow, understandably", when the mere notion of "peak times" suggests some degree of experience with it, and predictability. Customers then can't but wonder: why aren't you prepared? Customers don't know, neither care about how exactly your inner organisation looks like, all they care about is the outcome as they see it, and the communication that goes with it.

As a European customer the lead time in the end was my main reason to buy at audiophonics instead. It only took 4 days from purchase to delivery.
While I preferee the aesthetic of the Apollon amp, internally differences would be neglectable. And once I buy something I personally do not have the patience to wait 3+ weeks, especially when it is a relative expensive purchase I would prefer clarity over good words. So I hope that's going to happen to the customers here waiting for their delivery as well.

 

[Apollon Audio]

As a European customer the lead time in the end was my main reason to buy at audiophonics instead. It only took 4 days from purchase to delivery.
While I preferee the aesthetic of the Apollon amp, internally differences would be neglectable. And once I buy something I personally do not have the patience to wait 3+ weeks, especially when it is a relative expensive purchase I would prefer clarity over good words. So I hope that's going to happen to the customers here waiting for their delivery as well.

I fully understand that for many customers, especially when making a high-value purchase, delivery speed and clarity are important considerations.

That said, it’s essential to recognize that Apollon Audio and Audiophonics operate on fundamentally different principles, both in terms of manufacturing and pricing strategy.

Audiophonics is able to offer short lead times and lower prices because they source the majority of their components, including enclosures, buffer boards, and cables, from China. Once those parts arrive, assembly is relatively fast and standardized across a small range of chassis designs. It’s a streamlined process designed for volume and efficiency.

At Apollon, we’ve chosen a different path, one rooted in engineering integrity, customization, and craftsmanship.

We manufacture all enclosures in-house, using CNC-milled 10mm aluminum, custom-designed per model, not shared across product lines.

We produce all PCBs ourselves, using ultra-low tolerance components like 0.001% resistors and high-grade capacitors, parts that cost more, but perform consistently at the highest level.

We build all cabling by hand, with careful routing, shielding, and layout optimization, because signal integrity matters.

We also laser engrave and finish each chassis in-house to match the precision of the internals.

Naturally, this level of detail takes time, and yes, it costs more. We’re not assembling kits from pre-sourced bins. We have a highly skilled team to support, and every component we select is chosen for its long-term performance, not its price tag.

If these internal differences appear negligible at first glance, I would respectfully suggest looking more closely. What we build is not designed to win on price or shipping speed, it’s designed to last, and to perform with the kind of precision that reveals itself over time.

But hey, some people enjoy fast food. Others prefer a chef that sharpens his own knives.

 

[tmtomh]

Every time this thread comes up in my "New Posts" feed, I find myself wishing that the thread title could be changed. Some of the criticisms in the discussion are well-taken, but the thread title just seems unfair to me.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

But hey, some people enjoy fast food. Others prefer a chef that sharpens his own knives.

Except in this analogy, the meal tastes the same from either source.

 

[Apollon Audio]

Except in this analogy, the meal tastes the same from either source.

Only if you don’t actually measure the meal.

The idea that “the meal tastes the same” assumes performance parity, but that assumption doesn’t hold. We’ve already demonstrated that our amplifiers not only look different inside, they measure better. Lower noise floor, superior thermal behavior, tighter channel matching, and more refined EMI control. That’s not subjective preference, it’s empirical data.

Using the same module doesn’t equal the same amplifier. Just as putting the same engine into two cars doesn’t mean they’ll handle the same. Module placement layout, pcb layout, thermal strategy, grounding topology, these all shape the final performance.

At Apollon, we don’t just talk about build quality, we back it up with numbers. So no, the “meal” doesn’t taste the same. Ours is more refined, more stable, and built to deliver the same precision years down the line, not just on day one.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

At Apollon, we don’t just talk about build quality, we back it up with numbers. So no, the “meal” doesn’t taste the same. Ours is more refined, more stable, and built to deliver the same precision years down the line, not just on day one.

And yet, these "meals" have all been measured. We are on the very forum that does said measurements. None of them using the same module measure so differently that there is an audible difference. That's objective fact.

 

[Apollon Audio]

And yet, these "meals" have all been measured. We are on the very forum that does said measurements. None of them using the same module measure so differently that there is an audible difference. That's objective fact.

And when you eventually reach the level of in-house engineering, manufacturing autonomy, and component refinement that we’ve developed over more than a decade, your pricing will inevitably follow, and the marketing emphasis on “super low prices” will no longer be sustainable.

Designing amplifiers is one thing. Outsourcing PCB design and manufacturing to third-party firms is another. At Apollon, we take full control of that process: we design and manufacture our PCBs in-house, ensuring every circuit, trace, and component placement is optimized not just for function, but for performance longevity, thermal behavior, and mechanical symmetry.

Likewise, when your operation begins CNC machining your own enclosures in house, instead of relying on standardized outsourced chassis, and when you commit to sourcing 0.001% tolerance components, custom wiring, and meticulously routed internal layouts, you’ll understand what true vertical integration costs.

At that point, you won’t be promoting budget pricing.
You’ll be speaking the language of craftsmanship.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

At that point, you won’t be promoting budget pricing.
You’ll be speaking the language of craftsmanship.

Now that's true of course. I have always maintained there are "better crafted" builds out there. I would never take that away from you or other builders.

But don't try to insinuate that because the build/craftsmanship is of a bespoke nature the results will sound audibly better. On this forum where we use objective, rooted in science results, that is just false. Especially when our own designs measure at SOTA levels as well.

So again, the meals may be prepared and served differently, but when examined using objective data, they will taste the same.

 

[earik]

And yet, these "meals" have all been measured. We are on the very forum that does said measurements. None of them using the same module measure so differently that there is an audible difference. That's objective fact.

"Measurements" goes beyond a sinad graph. Since I know I won't be able to hear the difference between amps anyway, I pay a lot more attention to build quality, which you can see in the teardowns. Apollon wins, in that case.

Sighted bias is also a thing, so I think it's important to get an amp that looks "pretty". How it looks counts in the real world if the amp in question is sitting on the rack in your living room, because nobody listens for pleasure using ABX equipment. Might as well make that work in your favor. Again, the "measurements" (pictures in this case) show that Apollon does good work and builds an attractive product.

Finally, since most of these companies are generally smallish, you can get a feel from who you're buying from by reading through forum posts. Tibor has always been respectful, and you can see how he performs under pressure by reading through this very thread. Otoh, here's Buckeye jumping in on a pile-on against a competitor when he doesn't need to. When the Buckeye amps got shit for the loose wire (or whatever) that made them perform worse than the Purifi eval boards, I don't remember Tibor jumping in and giving Buckeye any crap. So again, especially against Buckeye in particular now that I've seen that, Apollon wins.

 

[goryu]

We build all cabling by hand, with careful routing, shielding, and layout optimization, because signal integrity matters.

Let's just say "integrity matters". You can build the ultimate amplifier but if your customer service is left wanting it won't matter how good it is or how good a value it may be, people will buy elsewhere. Enough people have reported a negative experience with your company here that your reputation has been called into question. Perhaps you should consider putting the same care and attention into your customer service and sales departments as you do your engineering.

It also bears mentioning that while it is admirable from an engineering standpoint to always strive for perfection in every detail as most every engineer will agree (myself included), the marketplace tends to reward value over perfection, thus the reason most companies have accountants to reign in those engineering instincts that always look at good enough as the enemy of perfection. While some people will undoubtedly appreciate and value the lengths you go to in your quest for perfection, most will likely see little if any audible benefit and vote with their pocketbooks, especially when integrity issues are present. Go to line 1.

 

[unpluggged]

@Apollon Audio @Buckeye Amps

Excuse me for interfering with your argument, but I hope you both don't mind our presence here during your debate here?

Don't you feel there are better places outside this forum to settle your disagreements? What about business ethics, at last?

 

[goryu]

So again, the meals may be prepared and served differently, but when examined using objective data, they will taste the same.

I'm not so sure...poor customer service and integrity concerns leave a bad taste in my mouth....

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Otoh, here's Buckeye jumping in on a pile-on against a competitor when he doesn't need to.

I was correcting a misleading/false statement they had made against other competitors, not just myself.

 

[Apollon Audio]

Now that's true of course. I have always maintained there are "better crafted" builds out there. I would never take that away from you or other builders.

But don't try to insinuate that because the build/craftsmanship is of a bespoke nature the results will sound audibly better. On this forum where we use objective, rooted in science results, that is just false. Especially when our own designs measure at SOTA levels as well.

So again, the meals may be prepared and served differently, but when examined using objective data, they will taste the same.

Let me clarify again, I never claimed our amplifiers “sound better” because of the build process. The analogy of the chef was never about flavor alone, but about the discipline, precision, and intent behind the work. Two meals might appear similar, but one is crafted by someone who controls every detail, from tool selection to plating, while the other is assembled for speed and scalability.

Similarly, two amplifiers might measure closely at low-power benchmarks like 5 watts, but that’s only a small part of the real-world performance picture. Not every implementation behaves the same under demanding, continuous load, especially when driving difficult speakers, large HiFi systems, low-impedance PA setups, or thermally punishing conditions. That’s where the differences between design philosophies and component choices start to show.

Your amps may measure well in controlled, short-term tests, and I respect that. But can they maintain the same thermal stability, distortion profile, and performance margins under sustained full-bandwidth stress? That’s where the difference between “spec sheet parity” and engineering robustness becomes clear.

And let’s be honest, we’ve cut corners on some of our entry-level models precisely because of manufacturers like you who are focused on price wars. But try comparing our more complex, high-spec builds, the ones that aren’t compromised to compete on cost, and you’ll find the margin closes very quickly.

Competing on price is one thing. Competing on engineering without compromise is another.

 

[respice finem]

Looking at it impartially (as a user of active speakers): Probably everybody knows, they shouldn't go to a five star restaurant while they're really hungry.
That said, even those who know, will at some point leave that restaurant and go for fast food instead, if the wait is way too long.
So it's IMHO better to clearly and swiftly communicate waiting time, or delays, whenever possible.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

But can they maintain the same thermal stability, distortion profile, and performance margins under sustained full-bandwidth stress?

Yes

 

[JeremyFife]

Let me clarify again, I never claimed our amplifiers “sound better” because of the build process. The analogy of the chef was never about flavor alone, but about the discipline, precision, and intent behind the work. Two meals might appear similar, but one is crafted by someone who controls every detail, from tool selection to plating, while the other is assembled for speed and scalability.

Similarly, two amplifiers might measure closely at low-power benchmarks like 5 watts, but that’s only a small part of the real-world performance picture. Not every implementation behaves the same under demanding, continuous load, especially when driving difficult speakers, large HiFi systems, low-impedance PA setups, or thermally punishing conditions. That’s where the differences between design philosophies and component choices start to show.

Your amps may measure well in controlled, short-term tests, and I respect that. But can they maintain the same thermal stability, distortion profile, and performance margins under sustained full-bandwidth stress? That’s where the difference between “spec sheet parity” and engineering robustness becomes clear.

And let’s be honest, we’ve cut corners on some of our entry-level models precisely because of manufacturers like you who are focused on price wars. But try comparing our more complex, high-spec builds, the ones that aren’t compromised to compete on cost, and you’ll find the margin closes very quickly.

Competing on price is one thing. Competing on engineering without compromise is another.

That argument is interesting to me. Can you share the measurements that illustrate what you are saying? Thanks

 

[Buckeye Amps]

And let’s be honest, we’ve cut corners on some of our entry-level models precisely because of manufacturers like you who are focused on price wars.

I'm not focused on price wars. From day one I've been focused on bringing the high-end "audiophile" performance of Hypex and Purifi offerings to as many people in the AV hobby as possible without charging them extra for looks or brand name surcharges.

I'm not here to derail the thread into an us vs. you argument. I was merely commenting to correct an erroneous implication that there will be a different "taste" (audible difference) between your amps and those companies who are "fast food".