• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Apollo x16claims -129dB thd+N

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
I'm hoping that Amir can just measure and post here to make sure it is unbiased and consistent, both the Apollo Twin x and the Apollo x16. I also mentioned that we have to trick out our AP units to measure those levels, and I suspect it isn't straightforward to post in exactly the same format.
 

Feyire

Active Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
272
Likes
314
Location
Netherlands
I'm hoping that Amir can just measure and post here to make sure it is unbiased and consistent, both the Apollo Twin x and the Apollo x16. I also mentioned that we have to trick out our AP units to measure those levels, and I suspect it isn't straightforward to post in exactly the same format.
Did you send the units to him for review?
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,376
Likes
234,556
Location
Seattle Area
Did you send the units to him for review?
They have indeed been kind enough to do so. I am in the process of upgrading my PC with Thunderbolt for testing.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,340
Likes
5,064
That is correct. We have some tricks in there, but the PGA2500 is the basis of our programmable gain.
As I recall, the marketing says you mimic the impedance of the mic preamps you're modeling - is that done with the PGA2500 or something added on? It's a really interesting and unique feature.
 

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
As I recall, the marketing says you mimic the impedance of the mic preamps you're modeling - is that done with the PGA2500 or something added on? It's a really interesting and unique feature.

That is not a capability of the PGA2500. We have proprietary analog circuitry on the front end that does that. Our Unison preamp plugins have control over that circuitry and the PGA to match the hardware we are modeling. It is a unique feature, and as a nerdy audio engineer, one of my favorites.
 

AllanDavidson

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
90
Likes
34
Disclosure: I am the Chief Architect for Universal Audio. That said, I'm not in sales, and am not trying to sell you on Apollo; just trying to answer some of these questions. Hopefully that is OK with the forum rules.

[...]

How does the Apollo Solo and Twin perform in comparison with the X16?

The only difference are I/O and Features, or there are differences in latency, performance, quality/SNR?
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
I have a Twin in for testing as well.
So glad to hear this. Look forward to the review.

I think UA claims 2 db less Sinad for the Twin vs the X16 and the same for everything else. Seems likely they'll meet their spec. Would make this maybe a better choice for some than the Babyface. The Babyface advantage is USB powered with the Twin is not.
 

AllanDavidson

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
90
Likes
34
I have a Twin in for testing as well.
Great!

My Motu M4 purchase is in backorder since June/12th!!! I may cancel it for the Apollo.

EDIT: Just learned Guitar Center filed for bankruptcy, so I may never get my Motu :(
 

win

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2020
Messages
430
Likes
432
Location
Irvine CA
Hi Dave
Is there any documentation on how to perform this modification or is there someone I can ask ?
Thanks.

what a great time to be into hifi.

Manufacturer 1: we had to hack our state of the art testing machine to test how good our product is

manufacturer 2: I also can make products that are better than state of art testing, how can I also hack it?

o_O
 

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
Hi Dave
Is there any documentation on how to perform this modification or is there someone I can ask ?
Thanks.

We don’t physically modify the AP. We do have several units that vary in performance, and we select the best ones/channels, but our tricks are more focused on specific procedures and combining multiple measurements to measure beyond typical AP auto ranging performance. The details of this are proprietary at the moment. Wish I could share more.
 

JohnYang1997

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Audio Company
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
7,175
Likes
18,292
Location
China
We don’t physically modify the AP. We do have several units that vary in performance, and we select the best ones/channels, but our tricks are more focused on specific procedures and combining multiple measurements to measure beyond typical AP auto ranging performance. The details of this are proprietary at the moment. Wish I could share more.
Alright so that's a manual process of coming up the result instead. That's what I've been doing the whole time. And thanks for your reply!
 

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
How does the Apollo Solo and Twin perform in comparison with the X16?

The only difference are I/O and Features, or there are differences in latency, performance, quality/SNR?
Twin X is a very similar design, but due to cost/heat/space trade-offs, it is slightly lower spec’d. Should still measure close to performance limits of the AP. I’m interested to see Amir’s results.

The Apollo Solo is in a lower spec class, but still very good. The primary constraint there is thunderbolt bus power limits.

We list all of our measured specs in the back of the manuals for each product, so you should be able to see the details.

Drivers and latency are the similar across all Apollos. Slight differences due to antialiasing filters.
 

Blake Klondike

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
442
Likes
311
Twin X is a very similar design, but due to cost/heat/space trade-offs, it is slightly lower spec’d. Should still measure close to performance limits of the AP. I’m interested to see Amir’s results.

The Apollo Solo is in a lower spec class, but still very good. The primary constraint there is thunderbolt bus power limits.

We list all of our measured specs in the back of the manuals for each product, so you should be able to see the details.

Drivers and latency are the similar across all Apollos. Slight differences due to antialiasing filters.

I have a 1st gen. Apollo Twin-- can you give me a sense re: how its measurements compare to those discussed here? What about the headphone amp specs? I have had trouble driving some headphones with it
 

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
I have a 1st gen. Apollo Twin-- can you give me a sense re: how its measurements compare to those discussed here? What about the headphone amp specs? I have had trouble driving some headphones with it

Specs depend on which output, but I believe that unit topped out at 118dB SNR and -107dB THD+N.

Headphone amp could deliver a good amount of power, but depends on headphone impedance. Which headphones did you have trouble with?
 

Blake Klondike

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
442
Likes
311
Specs depend on which output, but I believe that unit topped out at 118dB SNR and -107dB THD+N.

Headphone amp could deliver a good amount of power, but depends on headphone impedance. Which headphones did you have trouble with?

Thanks for the response. The headphones I was having trouble with were either HD800s or DT 880 Pros. I suppose I could run 1/4" out into a headphone amp to solve the problem? My basic question are whether the unit is transparent as a DAC, and what are the constraints of the headphone amp. I have been using it for demo tracking, and I like the pre-amps a lot, particularly direct electric bass. But wondering if the newer or more expensive units will provide noticeably better sound quality, particularly as a DAC for mixing or critical listening. Thanks again!
 

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
Thanks for the response. The headphones I was having trouble with were either HD800s or DT 880 Pros. I suppose I could run 1/4" out into a headphone amp to solve the problem? My basic question are whether the unit is transparent as a DAC, and what are the constraints of the headphone amp. I have been using it for demo tracking, and I like the pre-amps a lot, particularly direct electric bass. But wondering if the newer or more expensive units will provide noticeably better sound quality, particularly as a DAC for mixing or critical listening. Thanks again!

Out of curiosity, were you seeing drive issues with those headphones while you were tracking or mixing? One thing to note is that the headphone output of our devices are digitally controlled, and the max gain of the headphone amp is designed to not clip. If you are tracking/mixing (pre-mastering), you're likely leaving some headroom and not slamming the output as shown on the meters, you can't hit full power in the headphone outputs. Test the power by running already mastered content full range out of the Apollo and then crank the headphone amp.
 

Blake Klondike

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
442
Likes
311
Out of curiosity, were you seeing drive issues with those headphones while you were tracking or mixing? One thing to note is that the headphone output of our devices are digitally controlled, and the max gain of the headphone amp is designed to not clip. If you are tracking/mixing (pre-mastering), you're likely leaving some headroom and not slamming the output as shown on the meters, you can't hit full power in the headphone outputs. Test the power by running already mastered content full range out of the Apollo and then crank the headphone amp.

I appreciate the response! I was experiencing low volume when listening to FLACS of Beethoven symphonies-- I have never had any problems when tracking, or mixing. Just trying to get a handle on the unit's capabilities as a DAC for critical listening of commercial material. Was thinking it may not have been designed for 200 ohm headphones. Will do as you suggest, thanks!
 
Top Bottom