Anything better than Genelec?

[More Dynamics Please]

Often AMTs directivity was not well matched to the corresponding mid driver one and sometimes it was even voiced a bit too hot to make it stand out as a selling argument, if engineered well it won't really sound different to a good dome tweeter.

If a properly integrated AMT won't really sound different from a properly integrated dome then what are the remaining advantages and disadvantages of choosing one over the other beyond how they sound to us?

 

[thewas]

If a properly integrated AMT won't really sound different from a properly integrated dome then what are the remaining advantages and disadvantages of choosing one over the other beyond how they sound to us?

With an AMT you can create for example a larger driver and/or one with different height to width and thus can form the directivity which is not as possible with a dome tweeter.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

With an AMT you can create for example a larger driver and/or one with different height to width and thus can form the directivity which is not as possible with a dome tweeter.

Yes, but most modern dome tweeter implementations include a waveguide, and a properly designed waveguide should provide better control of directivity than simply changing the height-to-width proportions of an AMT.

 

[dfuller]

Yes, but most modern dome tweeter implementations include a waveguide, and a properly designed waveguide should provide better control of directivity than simply changing the height-to-width proportions of an AMT.

It's also a marketing thing. "Look at our special different tweeter technology!"

 

[preload]

Didn't Radio Shack speakers feature an AMT tweeter?

 

[thewas]

Yes, but most modern dome tweeter implementations include a waveguide, and a properly designed waveguide should provide better control of directivity than simply changing the height-to-width proportions of an AMT.

That is absolutely correct, a waveguide can also even make dispersion on the last octave less narrow than without it, which is another advantage of it.

 

[echopraxia]

How about their measurements? Is that worth anything?
https://www.me-geithain.de/en/rl-801k-11.html
Note how distortion is measured at 100db! That is truly loud. I am yet to see Genelec 8351B or 8361A at 100db. Do they look as good?

Here is an in-room measurement of my 8351B pushing almost 100db (other measurements here too):

However if you push it any further, Genelec’s DSP will automatically engage the limiter and it won’t get any louder. I actually like this: I’d rather see a warning light flash and suggest to me I need a subwoofer, than for a speaker to start distorting.

Genelecs are basically impossible to distort, because their on-board software is pretty aggressive at ensuring they aren’t pushed anywhere near their mechanics limits (and I suspect this also increases their reliability too). In contrast, my Neumann KH320’s would allow you to push them to around 100% THD in bass frequencies before the limiter engages, however the distortion never sounds particularly bad even when it is audible (perhaps due to the sealed design). Still, I prefer Genelec’s limiter approach.

In my (not exactly controlled scientific) tests, Genelec 8351B always kept distortion impressively low at all times until the limiter engages. Bass distortion is similar to the Revel Salon2 in the linked thread above (which is extremely good, actually better than any subwoofers I’ve had), and keeps up in every respect until 95-100db, where the Genelec limiter starts to kick in (only for bass frequencies; for mids and treble the Genelec will go as loud as any human would want) whereas of course the Revel (with 3x 8” woofers) isn’t anywhere near its limits.

The 8351B is still a comparably “small” speaker though, and while its SPL capabilities are extremely impressive for the size, you can’t defy physics. If you want high SPL down to 20hz in a large room you’re going to need a subwoofer or four.

 

[morespinach]

Well if you look at 2L recordings studio who has won multiple awards for multichannel music recordings they use Genelec Ones!

https://www.genelec.com/-/press/genelec-the-ones-power-morten-lindberg-s-stunning-immersive-studio

http://www.2l.no/

Seven 8351B! Haha. I could buy a small house in some cities

 

[echopraxia]

Wow - thanks for this! Such a clear and concise explanation of how phase is, and is not, important.

It seems like yet another "data point" in support of what has probably been the most eye-opening bit of measurement-related learning for me at this site: frequency response measurements capture a lot more of the total performance picture of gear than one might think.

As for what's better than Genelec, the first thing that came to mind for me is Neumann - I'm hard-pressed to think of a Genelec setup that would meet or exceed the KH310 for the same price. (Of course, in light of the phase discussion, I am mindful that only 2 of the 310's 3 drivers are vertically arrayed, but still....).

I agree, at least in terms of USA pricing, no Genelec product I know of matches the Neumann KH120A or KH310A.

I owned the Neumann KH120A, Neumann KH310A, and own the Genelec 8330A and Genelec 8351B.

To my ears, I do not think any Genelec is superior to the Neumann competitors until you get to “the ones”. Otherwise, I think the Neumann’s might even be a little bit better.

For example, without EQ, the Neumann KH120A sounds at least as good as the Genelec 8330A, and had much more bass power (the KH120A bass is just incredible in such a small package) — and the Neumann KH120A is approximately the same price, or sometimes even a bit cheaper (because you can get Neumann on sale in the USA but not Genelec).

The Genelec 8330A sits on my wife’s home office desk instead of the Neumann KH120A for two simple reasons: (1) The Genelec 8330A apparently looks “cuter” and less industrial (my wife’s reason for preferring it), and (2) the Genelec’s on-board digital electronics (my reason) is a huge feature. After calibrating the Genelec smart monitors with GLM, those DSP filters can be stored directly on the speakers such that no external equipment or software is needed after this calibration process is done. Additionally, the Genelec’s have an automatic sleep feature which prevents their amps from constantly emitting heat (and slowly wearing out) when sitting idle.

Neumann KH120 and KH310 do not have this auto-sleep feature, and so will be slightly warm to the touch while idling overnight if you do not physically switch them off or disconnect their power. While the energy consumption maybe isn’t a huge problem, I mostly worry about the electronics wearing out over time if I don’t switch them off when not in use. With Genelec’s, I no longer have to worry about that since they will power off automatically when there is no input signal for a while.

 

[preload]

Here is an in-room measurement of my 8351B pushing almost 100db (other measurements here too):

@echopraxia, can you share your measurement method for in-room FR?

 

[Pearljam5000]

I agree, at least in terms of USA pricing, no Genelec product I know of matches the Neumann KH120A or KH310A.

I owned the Neumann KH120A, Neumann KH310A, and own the Genelec 8330A and Genelec 8351B.

To my ears, I do not think any Genelec is superior to the Neumann competitors until you get to “the ones”. Otherwise, I think the Neumann’s might even be a little bit better.

For example, without EQ, the Neumann KH120A sounds at least as good as the Genelec 8330A, and had much more bass power (the KH120A bass is just incredible in such a small package) — and the Neumann KH120A is approximately the same price, or sometimes even a bit cheaper (because you can get Neumann on sale in the USA but not Genelec).

The Genelec 8330A sits on my wife’s home office desk instead of the Neumann KH120A for two simple reasons: (1) The Genelec 8330A apparently looks “cuter” and less industrial (my wife’s reason for preferring it), and (2) the Genelec’s on-board digital electronics (my reason) is a huge feature. After calibrating the Genelec smart monitors with GLM, those DSP filters can be stored directly on the speakers such that no external equipment or software is needed after this calibration process is done. Additionally, the Genelec’s have an automatic sleep feature which prevents their amps from constantly emitting heat (and slowly wearing out) when sitting idle.

Neumann KH120 and KH310 do not have this auto-sleep feature, and so will be slightly warm to the touch while idling overnight if you do not physically switch them off or disconnect their power. While the energy consumption maybe isn’t a huge problem, I mostly worry about the electronics wearing out over time if I don’t switch them off when not in use. With Genelec’s, I no longer have to worry about that since they will power off automatically when there is no input signal for a while.

Can you compare 8351B to KH310? Thanks.

 

[echopraxia]

@echopraxia, can you share your measurement method for in-room FR?

It wasn’t very scientific, but it’s the only measurement I had already posted that came to mind. IIRC I was playing the signal on a stereo pair of speakers, measured at a distance of 10-15 feet. The speakers were not placed optimally for bass power (spaced out quite a few feet from the rear wall, for some misc practical reasons of the room geometry).

 

[daftcombo]

For example, without EQ, the Neumann KH120A sounds at least as good as the Genelec 8330A, and had much more bass power (the KH120A bass is just incredible in such a small package) — and the Neumann KH120A is approximately the same price, or sometimes even a bit cheaper (because you can get Neumann on sale in the USA but not Genelec).

I think nobody here can wait for @amirm 's measurements of the KH120 (and of the 8351B as well but it's not the same price range).
But KH120 have often been said to be "darker" or to have "weird treble" compared to Genelec 8030C or the likes. What do you think?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Didn't Radio Shack speakers feature an AMT tweeter?

One of them had a Linaeum tweeter. I had some, excellent vfm, diecast metal enclosure. My kids have them now.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

One of them had a Linaeum tweeter. I had some, excellent vfm, diecast metal enclosure. My kids have them now.

Optimus Pro LX5. Nasty port sounds from trying to produce more bass than the little box could muster. The big mod of the day was to stuff straws into the ports to retune. My solution was to head back to Radio Shack to buy my first ever subwoofer and set the crossover as high as it would go (which I think was ~150 Hz). The Linaeum tweeter was sweet.

 

[echopraxia]

Can you compare 8351B to KH310? Thanks.

There are many ways to compare since they're such different designs. The 8351B of course has all the benefits of a coaxial, while the KH310 is kind of the opposite of a coaxial since its driver layout lacks symmetry along any axis (even though the results are still extremely good, obviously).

In terms of sound quality, the 8351B is better of course, but it's roughly twice as expensive too. I haven't really compared extensively side-by-side, and it's hard to quantify price vs performance, but I do think the KH310 is a really good deal for what you get and it comes very close to the 8351B in terms of being very balanced, neutral, accurate, low distortion, and very powerful in a small package. For desktop nearfield listening use though (which is what I mostly used these for), it's hard to match a coaxial whose sound signature doesn't change at all when you move around. Beyond that most of my lengthy listening is from the Genelec calibrated via GLM versus memories of the KH310 with no EQ, so that's not really a fair comparison.

 

[q3cpma]

There are many ways to compare since they're such different designs. The 8351B of course has all the benefits of a coaxial, while the KH310 is kind of the opposite of a coaxial since its driver layout lacks symmetry along any axis (even though the results are still extremely good, obviously).

In terms of sound quality, the 8351B is better of course, but it's roughly twice as expensive too. I haven't really compared extensively side-by-side, and it's hard to quantify price vs performance, but I do think the KH310 is a really good deal for what you get and it comes very close to the 8351B in terms of being very balanced, neutral, accurate, low distortion, and very powerful in a small package. For desktop nearfield listening use though (which is what I mostly used these for), it's hard to match a coaxial whose sound signature doesn't change at all when you move around. Beyond that most of my lengthy listening is from the Genelec calibrated via GLM versus memories of the KH310 with no EQ, so that's not really a fair comparison.

By the way, since I see the 7360A in your signature, how does it fare? I remember your "fun" experience with the 7350A, but nothing more.

 

[stevenswall]

From what I've heard or seen measurements of, everything is a tradeoff compared to a Genelec 8260 (wider dispersion and deeper bass compared to the latter) or The Ones (better vertical dispersion than the former).

The only things I can think of that would be appreciably better and possible with current technology don't exist:
-Improved Devialet Phantom with cardioid bass dispersion and regular inputs to avoid the app.
-D&D 8C with a coaxial mid/tweeter to improve the vertical dispersion.
-Kii Three with a coaxial mid/tweeter to improve the vertical dispersion.
-The Ones with a shallower waveguide for wider dispersion which seems to be preferred... Move the woofers to the sides.
-Improved KEF Blade with some rear woofers and cardioid bass and no air gap in the coaxial driver.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Here is an in-room measurement of my 8351B pushing almost 100db (other measurements here too):

View attachment 125214

However if you push it any further, Genelec’s DSP will automatically engage the limiter and it won’t get any louder. I actually like this: I’d rather see a warning light flash and suggest to me I need a subwoofer, than for a speaker to start distorting.

Genelecs are basically impossible to distort, because their on-board software is pretty aggressive at ensuring they aren’t pushed anywhere near their mechanics limits (and I suspect this also increases their reliability too). In contrast, my Neumann KH320’s would allow you to push them to around 100% THD in bass frequencies before the limiter engages, however the distortion never sounds particularly bad even when it is audible (perhaps due to the sealed design). Still, I prefer Genelec’s limiter approach.

In my (not exactly controlled scientific) tests, Genelec 8351B always kept distortion impressively low at all times until the limiter engages. Bass distortion is similar to the Revel Salon2 in the linked thread above (which is extremely good, actually better than any subwoofers I’ve had), and keeps up in every respect until 95-100db, where the Genelec limiter starts to kick in (only for bass frequencies; for mids and treble the Genelec will go as loud as any human would want) whereas of course the Revel (with 3x 8” woofers) isn’t anywhere near its limits.

The 8351B is still a comparably “small” speaker though, and while its SPL capabilities are extremely impressive for the size, you can’t defy physics. If you want high SPL down to 20hz in a large room you’re going to need a subwoofer or four.

Where did the limiter engage? At bass frequencies?

 

[echopraxia]

I think nobody here can wait for @amirm 's measurements of the KH120 (and of the 8351B as well but it's not the same price range).
But KH120 have often been said to be "darker" or to have "weird treble" compared to Genelec 8030C or the likes. What do you think?

I have not seen or heard anything that would suggest Neumann treble is "weird". Revel F206 and Focal Aria 926 have "weird" treble to my ears and sound sometimes painfully harsh depending on the music frequency content. The F206 sounds like it has a peak/resonance/boost somewhere in the treble that wasn't crazy bad but just didn't really please me, and the Aria 926 has a similar problem, except the resonance sounds much higher (almost but not quite past the upper limits of my hearing to detect and respond via unpleasant harshness sensation) and so is pretty easy to fix with a high treble roll-off filter (after which I'm very happy with it).

But the treble from Neumann and Genelec is some of the best I've heard across all the speakers I've listened to. My Genelec 8351B probably takes the prize as the best treble I've ever heard. But the 8330A and KH120 are also amazingly good, and I would say are on par with each other -- mostly indistinguishable but with maybe very slight differences so subtle that I would have a really difficult time choosing which I prefer. The Genelec 8351B treble is IMO better than the Revel Salon2 treble in terms of the direct sound, but the Salon2 still has an advantage I can't quite explain in terms of 'spacious' soundstage effect which benefits acoustic/real music but not necessarily electronic/amplified-style music (but I think whether that appeals to you would be subjective on whether you like more spacious/wide, or more precise/focused soundstage).