Anything better than Genelec?

[Deleted member 4708]

Stereoplay's measurements have always looked very smoothed/low resolution to me. Nothing like Klippel or even S&R measurements, quality-wise.

In any case, MEG is unbuyable and unsupported in most of the world as far as I know, so it's not really an option for most people. Given they have speakers that are competitive with Neumann and Genelec, and that they like to make money, you would think they would try to improve distribution.

1. Look at the measurements posted by the company. They look fantastic if you ask me. 0.5% distortion at 100db. Never seen Genelec measured at 100db.
2. Sigh - you are right on distribution / support. I can buy them in California (I verified with the company) but it would be a direct buy from Geithain... No local support.

 

[HooStat]

Sigh - you are right on distribution / support. I can buy them in California (I verified with the company) but it would be a direct buy from Geithain... No local support.

I checked that out too and got the same answer. It always scares me to possibly need service from a company so far away. Having said this, there is no guarantee that a closer company will have better service.

 

[Spocko]

I am pretty sure the way "Linear Phase" is used in all speaker marketing materials is mostly nonsense. Strictly speaking, I don't think it is even possible to offer linear phase down to low bass frequencies without introducing a huge amount of latency, which is unacceptable for too many use cases.

The 8361A(and the other newer Ones: the 8351A was an earlier model not representative of current performance) seem to have relatively linear phase down to 500hz unless I am misreading.

Here is a graph of a speaker that promises "linear phase" and introduces massive latency(90ms) to accomplish it:

Sound&Recording shows the newer Ones (8361A and 8331A) as phase linear starting from 1 kHz, the 8350A from 300 Hz and the S360 from 100 Hz.

Excuse this newbie, but a few questions about "linear phase":

1. Is "linear phase" measurements reasonably easy for @amirm and his Klippel?
2. Is this a computational feature unique to DSP driven speakers (aka Kii and Genelec)?
3. What audible benefits does good linear phase offer when real music is played?
4. If linear phase is indeed beneficial, between what frequency ranges should phase be linear?

 

[q3cpma]

Excuse this newbie, but a few questions about "linear phase":
[*]Is "linear phase" measurements reasonably easy for @amirm and his Klippel?

It's just measuring phase and looking for phase shifts.

[*]Is this a computational feature unique to DSP driven speakers (aka Kii and Genelec)?

You can do it via external DSP, but since it's suited to the exact speaker (and maybe even the sample), internal DSP makes sense. I think Dirac does it, HEDD via a VST (no LV2 =|) plugin too.

[*]What audible benefits does good linear phase offer when real music is played?

Don't know, never heard any. Some people swear by it, but I think research says it's not that important. It's easier to reason about its influence on group delay: see the abstract from https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19404, for example.

[*]If linear phase is indeed beneficial, between what frequency ranges should phase be linear?

Don't know except the group delay limits found in the aformentioned Genelec paper, so I use the most sensible band (1-6 kHz) as my ruler, since it also matches their findings.

 

[ernestcarl]

Is "linear phase" measurements reasonably easy for @amirm and his Klippel?

Dunno why it's not included. IMO, phase plots should be posted for all speakers. Being phase linear doesn't, of course, mean a speaker will be better in other metrics like distortion level and directivity performance.

Is this a computational feature unique to DSP driven speakers (aka Kii and Genelec)?

No. But it makes it easier to implement.

What audible benefits does good linear phase offer when real music is played?

Depends on the material. It's effect is subtle in vast majority of stuff out there but can be definitely audible in a quiet, well treated room -- I think it's more obvious if you have less reflections which screws up the phase and direct sound anyway in many rooms.

For me, it can improve a track's sense of depth and increase clarity. Linearizing the phase can also make transients sound just a little brighter by reducing "time spreading".

If linear phase is indeed beneficial, between what frequency ranges should phase be linear?

In a multichannel setup, speakers don't necessarily have to be phase linear all the way down to the bass. What's more important is if all channels are phase compliant which makes mixing and matching different speakers easy.

While my front main channels are already phase liinear around 250Hz up, the surrounds are not. Matching the phase of the surrounds with the fronts via FIR (including excess phase correction & matching) has noticeably improved the sense of spatial coherence between front to back -- I mix everything to multichannel surround.

There's a lot more interfering reflections (adjacent boundaries & furniture) which mess the more distant main LR channels.

 

[Spocko]

Dunno why it's not included. IMO, phase plots should be posted for all speakers. Being phase linear doesn't, of course, mean a speaker will be better in other metrics like distortion level and directivity performance.



No. But it makes it easier to implement.



Depends on the material. It's effect is subtle in vast majority of stuff out there but can be definitely audible in a quiet, well treated room -- I think it's more obvious if you have less reflections which screws up the phase and direct sound anyway in many rooms.

For me, it can improve a track's sense of depth and increase clarity. Linearizing the phase can also make transients sound just a little brighter by reducing "time spreading".

In a multichannel setup, speakers don't necessarily have to be phase linear all the way down to the bass. What's more important is if all channels are phase compliant which makes mixing and matching different speakers easy.

While my front main channels are already phase liinear around 250Hz up, the surrounds are not. Matching the phase of the surrounds with the fronts via FIR (including excess phase correction & matching) has noticeably improved the sense of spatial coherence between front to back -- I mix everything to multichannel surround.

View attachment 117224

There's a lot more interfering reflections (adjacent boundaries & furniture) which mess the more distant main LR channels.


View attachment 117227

So in a multichannel setup, you can improve each individual speaker's phase linearity via the processor if the processor has FIR filters, like the Trinnov?

EDIT: never mind, I think I found my answer here on Trinnov's website:

How does the Optimizer affect the phase response of a speaker?

The phase response will be impacted by the multiple reflections occurring in the room.

The Optimizer is the only system on the market that not only compensates for the phase response of a loudspeaker but actually shows you what it does with acoustic graphs where you can see the before and after phase response for any given measurement position.

Although less phase correction will be required with speakers delivering linear phase response, the in-room measurement can yield even better results by mitigating some room-based phase errors, namely inter-speaker phase mismatch, leading to cancellation in the most extreme situations.

 

[Sancus]

Excuse this newbie, but a few questions about "linear phase":

1. Is "linear phase" measurements reasonably easy for @amirm and his Klippel?
2. Is this a computational feature unique to DSP driven speakers (aka Kii and Genelec)?
3. What audible benefits does good linear phase offer when real music is played?
4. If linear phase is indeed beneficial, between what frequency ranges should phase be linear?

yeah, what @q3cpma said basically. I have never seen any research cited that phase shifts like this alone are audible, if controlling for their effects on frequency response. To be clear, if anything Genelec Ones are more-than-usually phase linear for a studio monitor. Many highly lauded ones like the KH310 and 420 are even less linear.

Considering Genelec has actual, published research on this topic, I completely trust their judgement in terms of phase response and don't concern myself with it, except when people complain about lines on graphs

 

[Frank Dernie]

Does anybody have a view or information on the phase coherence of recordings?
It seems to me that any recording which has been mixed from multiple microphones, and probably gone through various effects boxes or filters then mixed down to 2 channels hasn't got a glimmer of any original sound related phase data in it.
I write this partly because I went to a demo where the DSP correction of a speaker was demonstrated with phase correction verses without.
One of the recordings was a modern rock music recording, and the difference was audible on direct comparison, but marginal. A second recording was an old recording of a Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera.
It had been simply recorded, maybe even just 2 microphones, and the improvement wrought by the phase correction was marked and unmistakeable. (as usual the recording has bigger SQ differences than the equipment)

 

[Spocko]

Does anybody have a view or information on the phase coherence of recordings?
It seems to me that any recording which has been mixed from multiple microphones, and probably gone through various effects boxes or filters then mixed down to 2 channels hasn't got a glimmer of any original sound related phase data in it.
I write this partly because I went to a demo where the DSP correction of a speaker was demonstrated with phase correction verses without.
One of the recordings was a modern rock music recording, and the difference was audible on direct comparison, but marginal. A second recording was an old recording of a Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera.
It had been simply recorded, maybe even just 2 microphones, and the improvement wrought by the phase correction was marked and unmistakeable. (as usual the recording has bigger SQ differences than the equipment)

Makes me wonder if the DSP offered in modern binaural algorithms is "adding" or "preserving" phase coherence in order to establish that je ne sais quoi component unique to the binaural recording when compared to stereo.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Makes me wonder if the DSP offered in modern binaural algorithms is "adding" or "preserving" phase coherence in order to establish that je ne sais quoi component unique to the binaural recording when compared to stereo.

Je ne sais quoi non plus.

 

[txbdan]

I'm shopping near field active monitors/speakers and debating Genelecs vs Neumanns. 8030Cs or KH80s. Many of the KH80 measurements look better in terms of flat freq response, but almost all of the subjective reviews, includes Amirs, seem to favor the Genelecs. Not sure what to make of it. I'm tempted to get them both and return the losers.

 

[YSC]

I'm shopping near field active monitors/speakers and debating Genelecs vs Neumanns. 8030Cs or KH80s. Many of the KH80 measurements look better in terms of flat freq response, but almost all of the subjective reviews, includes Amirs, seem to favor the Genelecs. Not sure what to make of it. I'm tempted to get them both and return the losers.

I just think maybe it’s due to the kh80 smaller size make the overall sound less ‘big’?
And that in any actual listening room the extra flatness can’t really be perceived by human ears

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

Dear All,

Long time reader, since I own 5x Genelec 8351B (combined with 2x SVS PC 13 Ultra subwoofers) and a Trinnov, I felt to chime in and maybe can answer some questions.

The Genelecs replaced a Magnepan MG20.7 and MG1.7 with 5x Benchmark AHB2 (bridged mode) surround set-up.

I am aware my center speaker isn't placed "ideally," and I would wish for the surround channels to be placed lower and closer to ear height. However, in my compromised rented apartment, there is a limit to what I can do. If I could live my dream, I had a fully acoustically treated dedicated surround room and follow the ITU standard.

That being said, In a fully concrete room, Thick high pole carpets and bookshelves helped tremendously reduce RT time to 0.31sec. And the Trinnov did an excellent job, flatten and corrected all channels.

The Trinnov indeed applies phase correction. Please see attached screenshot of the predicted post-correction response.

Stand alone with GLM, the 8351B is a terrific speaker, and because it does so much "right," there is little "wrong. It isn't everyone's cup of tea. My girlfriend, for one, says it is at times to "overwhelming" and not for background listening. So many details get thrown into your face, according to her. For me, this is the ultimate dream and what I have craved for a lifetime.

With a pro-audio background, I love to be able (and finally can with the Genelecs) to hear the layers of different synthesizers. For example, on multiple Quincy Jones albums, I can finally distinguish which synths are layered together for a particular sound layer. For example, a Roland MKS20 with a Roland D50 to create a new sound. I can hear mix decisions and even the slightest variation in panning.

I would swear I can even recognize the Lexicon 480L reverb as a layer separated from the vocal. They are THAT revealing.

I have read some concerns about the headroom. It is a small speaker with relatively small woofers. However, I never encountered any strain, distortion, or clipping. This is probable is because I use a steep 8th order (L/R) cross-over between mains and subs, which removes the strain from the 8351B's woofers.

The Trinnov lifts an already excellent designed speaker one level up. I have had the Trinnov corrected aggressively, as can be seen in the settings below:
• Resolution of Energy Response: 1/24 octave for IIR & FIR
• Number of IIR filters 50
• IIR filters maximum Frequency 200
• FIR filter length 300ms
• Cross-over 80Hz L/R 8th order

What happens is that every sound is placed in space, and you don't hear speakers anymore. With choirs, each singer is set in-depth, while all other instruments and vocals are placed in front. At first, I even had to get used to it and wondered if I pushed things too far, But it is delightful.

Thanks!

 

[Ilkless]

I'm shopping near field active monitors/speakers and debating Genelecs vs Neumanns. 8030Cs or KH80s. Many of the KH80 measurements look better in terms of flat freq response, but almost all of the subjective reviews, includes Amirs, seem to favor the Genelecs. Not sure what to make of it. I'm tempted to get them both and return the losers.

80 is a much smaller speaker, 4.5 inch woofer vs 5.25-inch, and much smaller volume. It pushes the limits of what's possible in that size, but a larger cabinet and driver will still have less to work against.

 

[Vict0r]

What happens is that every sound is placed in space, and you don't hear speakers anymore. With choirs, each singer is set in-depth, while all other instruments and vocals are placed in front. At first, I even had to get used to it and wondered if I pushed things too far, But it is delightful.

Thanks!

This seems like an absolute sleeper setup. I want to come listen!

No acoustic treatment?

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

This seems like an absolute sleeper setup. I want to come listen!

Thank you for your kind words. No acoustic treatment?

Thank you for your kind words. Other than heavy high pole carpet and multiple bookshelfs (a massive one behind the listing space) nothing special. But those measures did well and the room is considerable "dry" with an RT of 0.31s. Bass is is hard to tame, and would requires big bass-traps which is not do-able in this living room.

Instead I have the Trinnov with multi-sub setup, which flatten the response considerable well flat to 15Hz. -3dB.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

Thank you for your kind words. Other than heavy high pole carpet and multiple bookshelfs (a massive one behind the listing space) nothing special. But those measures did well and the room is considerable "dry" with an RT of 0.31s. Bass is is hard to tame, and would requires big bass-traps which is not do-able in this living room.

Instead I have the Trinnov with multi-sub setup, which flatten the response considerable well flat to 15Hz. -3dB.

Additionally, See attached the measurements (all channels) and the predicted corrected response on this topic. As can be seen, my problematic room mode is between 45Hz and 50Hz. (typical for small concrete living rooms).

The yellow line is the summed subwoofers. With just one sub, this would have been a 9dB peak. Multi-sub reduced that peak to 3dB. Unfortunately, the dip at 85Hz of around 6dB isn't much reduced with multi-sub. I allow the Trinnov for corrections up to +8dB/-20dB, and this is corrected for but is not desired. I respect Genelecs choice with GLM to not correct for dips, and I think that is a sensible thing to do. I allow for a bit of correction for dips because I use for my room overkill SVS subwoofers, which can handle this kind of correction under my circumstances.

Future plans are experimenting with different locations of multiple subwoofers. The issue is that I don't have physical space, and adding a third sub will probable reach the limit of the current capacity of my outlets. (all in the same group).

 

[Pearljam5000]

Dear All,

Long time reader, since I own 5x Genelec 8351B (combined with 2x SVS PC 13 Ultra subwoofers) and a Trinnov, I felt to chime in and maybe can answer some questions.

The Genelecs replaced a Magnepan MG20.7 and MG1.7 with 5x Benchmark AHB2 (bridged mode) surround set-up.

I am aware my center speaker isn't placed "ideally," and I would wish for the surround channels to be placed lower and closer to ear height. However, in my compromised rented apartment, there is a limit to what I can do. If I could live my dream, I had a fully acoustically treated dedicated surround room and follow the ITU standard.

That being said, In a fully concrete room, Thick high pole carpets and bookshelves helped tremendously reduce RT time to 0.31sec. And the Trinnov did an excellent job, flatten and corrected all channels.

The Trinnov indeed applies phase correction. Please see attached screenshot of the predicted post-correction response.

Stand alone with GLM, the 8351B is a terrific speaker, and because it does so much "right," there is little "wrong. It isn't everyone's cup of tea. My girlfriend, for one, says it is at times to "overwhelming" and not for background listening. So many details get thrown into your face, according to her. For me, this is the ultimate dream and what I have craved for a lifetime.

With a pro-audio background, I love to be able (and finally can with the Genelecs) to hear the layers of different synthesizers. For example, on multiple Quincy Jones albums, I can finally distinguish which synths are layered together for a particular sound layer. For example, a Roland MKS20 with a Roland D50 to create a new sound. I can hear mix decisions and even the slightest variation in panning.

I would swear I can even recognize the Lexicon 480L reverb as a layer separated from the vocal. They are THAT revealing.

I have read some concerns about the headroom. It is a small speaker with relatively small woofers. However, I never encountered any strain, distortion, or clipping. This is probable is because I use a steep 8th order (L/R) cross-over between mains and subs, which removes the strain from the 8351B's woofers.

The Trinnov lifts an already excellent designed speaker one level up. I have had the Trinnov corrected aggressively, as can be seen in the settings below:
• Resolution of Energy Response: 1/24 octave for IIR & FIR
• Number of IIR filters 50
• IIR filters maximum Frequency 200
• FIR filter length 300ms
• Cross-over 80Hz L/R 8th order

What happens is that every sound is placed in space, and you don't hear speakers anymore. With choirs, each singer is set in-depth, while all other instruments and vocals are placed in front. At first, I even had to get used to it and wondered if I pushed things too far, But it is delightful.

Thanks!

Stunning room my friend

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

Stunning room my friend

Thank you! You must mean the stuff animals on the right side...

It isn't actually the room I want or wished for, but I try to make the best out of it under the limitations it imposes. I am tremendously jealous on the big basements some American houses have. then you could really go wild (and I would, if I had that opportunity).

 

[Frank Dernie]

Unfortunately, the dip at 85Hz of around 6dB isn't much reduced with multi-sub. I allow the Trinnov for corrections up to +8dB/-20dB, and this is corrected for but is not desired. I respect Genelecs choice with GLM to not correct for dips, and I think that is a sensible thing to do. I allow for a bit of correction for dips because I use for my room overkill SVS subwoofers, which can handle this kind of correction under my circumstances.

The dips are due to the listening position being near an anti-node, and not boosting at that frequency makes proper technical sense because of this. Have you tried moving one or two of the subs to see if that fills the dip a bit?
Given that the location of the excitation (ie the speaker) does influence the intensity of the ratio of excited modes and harmonics it may well be possible to even things up by moving one or more of the subs.