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Anyone see this train wreck in Stereophile?

richard12511

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Anyway, I think the designers point about piano(and why most speakers don't do it well) was more about dynamics than it was about image size.

With that, I agree with him. Most speakers aren't capable of reproducing the dynamics of a live piano, much less drums. They don't really have to, though, as they only have to reproduce the dynamics of what's in the recording, and most recordings don't have near the dynamics of live instruments in them.
 

Sal1950

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Ilkless

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What I abhor about continuously giving such speakers the time of day is that it exaggerates the trade-offs needed for a horn speaker - that the great dynamics, high max SPL and directivity control must necessarily sacrifice FR, distortion and phase big-time (as with Voltis). Thus, it cultivates an ill-deserved reputation of horns as a wildly-temperamental class of speakers for only the most ardent and dedicated.

The truth is that the sacrifices needed are much more minimal than Volti-style designs would indicate. Reviewing a Danley would be very educational for Stereophile.
 

richard12511

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What I abhor about continuously giving such speakers the time of day is that it exaggerates the trade-offs needed for a horn speaker - that the great dynamics, high max SPL and directivity control must necessarily sacrifice FR, distortion and phase big-time (as with Voltis). Thus, it cultivates an ill-deserved reputation of horns as a wildly-temperamental class of speakers for only the most ardent and dedicated.

The truth is that the sacrifices needed are much more minimal than Volti-style designs would indicate. Reviewing a Danley would be very educational for Stereophile.

Would love to see them (or ASR) review a Danley.

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh50/

^^^ awesome horn. Much better than the Volti for probably most folks, and with even more dynamics. If price weren't a factor I would honestly take that over those Avantguarde horns that measure not so well.
 

b1daly

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It's mostly mixing technique. Fact is, reality is the last concern of a producer at a recording. People are used to the sound of close-miked unreality.
Realism is drum sound in a recording is moot, because most listening is done at much lower volume than a real drum set. If you do a basic mic up of a drum kit and play it back at near the actual spl of the original, it’s going to sound very similar, while at lower levels not. Given that most recordings feature mixes of instruments that have naturally different volume ranges blended, realism is not relevant, and much trickery must be used to pull together the illusion of a coherent mix. Back in the day when small combos might be recorded with one or two mics, drum set often was too loud, or had to be set way back, giving a different ambience compared to the close mic’d instruments.
 

b1daly

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But that, again, presumes a certain goal: that a piano should always sound like it does from an audience's perspective in a hall, or whatever.
There are certainly reasons why someone may want to replicated that perspective - if you are trying to replicate the sound from where an audience would sit further away.

But that's not the only valid approach IMO. The fact audiences sit at distance is essentially a contingent, practical fact to some degree. They aren't playing the piano, and typically many people are watching, so many end up quite a distance from the piano, and that is a contingent fact of concert-going.

But as someone who plays piano, I find that nothing beats the sound of actually being in the position of playing the piano. The vividness and richness of every note is elevated relative to the ever-homogonizing effect the further away you are in a hall. I used to just hit a single note, or chord, and would just luxurate in the rich tone and rumble of being right near the body, sounding board and strings. So I LIKE the closer, bigger sounding micing of pianos, where I hear more of the luxurious timbral nuances and dynamics of the player.

Similarly, in many orchestral recordings it's often assumed you want to create the homogenized sound of the orchestra from hall perspective. And again that's an understandable goal. But I'm one of those who, like the piano scenario, really appreciates the individuality of instrumental tones and textures, which become more vivid when closer to the instruments. Which is why I often liked to sit quite close to orchestras. And so, while I can appreciate many of the "mid-hall perspective" recordings, I also really love a more close up sound recording as well. (All that with the caveats that even mid-hall/back hall sounding recordings often incorporate close micing with distant micing, but the final mix creates the more distant perspective).

It is simply impossible to accurately reproduce the sound of an acoustic piano. The 3d sound field that comes off a piano is very complex and variable. The room also plays a big role. Just moving a bit in a space with a real piano will cause the sound field to shift in ways very different than it will with stereo speakers. The best that can be achieved is kind of a ‘gestalt’ where the spirit of the performance comes through.
 

Balle Clorin

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I can do a reality check quite easily. Baby Grand piano to the right, Hifi to the left, or was it the other way?. A real piano is just real in a some way...I can hear that it is my wife on the piano before I even enter the appartement
capture-jpg.564976


For some reason I hate recordings of distant pianos, the recording must be as "close" as I am accustomed to...that is 10feet away
 
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amirm

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Balle Clorin

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To be fair, this is what hearing looks like at 80 years old.

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Maybe this explains why some costly speakers has an elevated treble: Audiovector/B&W/Klipsch/some Focals it fits the target group
I better buy some good speakers while I can hear them...
 

Sal1950

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Realism is drum sound in a recording is moot, because most listening is done at much lower volume than a real drum set. If you do a basic mic up of a drum kit and play it back at near the actual spl of the original, it’s going to sound very similar, while at lower levels not.
Very true, the reproduction of a good hard rimshot can produce spl's outside the capabity of most systems anyway. On the other hand it is the very rare recording of music in the popular genre that can even offer cymbals that don't sound more like the burst of an air hose. :(
 

Robin L

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Very true, the reproduction of a good hard rimshot can produce spl's outside the capabity of most systems anyway. On the other hand it is the very rare recording of music in the popular genre that can even offer cymbals that don't sound more like the burst of an air hose. :(
I've noticed that most drum sound on commercial recordings is dynamically limited one way or another. I've made recordings of a rock band using a handheld recorder, though I used various dynamic and condenser microphones and an outboard mixer. The band has a very loud drummer, and the recordings were overwhelmed by the drum sound. I found the application of a compressor made everything else easier to hear. If a recording has the true peak levels of the drum kit, it will probably make the overall levels of the mix a mess.
 

richard12511

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Very true, the reproduction of a good hard rimshot can produce spl's outside the capabity of most systems anyway. On the other hand it is the very rare recording of music in the popular genre that can even offer cymbals that don't sound more like the burst of an air hose. :(

Even if the system can handle it, I would think the recording itself would still limit it. Not sure how loud drum hits can get. The speakers in my main room can handle incredible dynamics(134db claimed), but I would bet a really loud drum hit could push them to their absolute limit, or even beyond. I know for sure that I've never heard a drum recording on my speakers that sounds anywhere near as dynamic as a live drum. My friends dad used to play drums in the downstairs living room. We'd be playing upstairs and in another room, and we could still barely hear what the other was saying over the drums.
 

Kal Rubinson

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Very true, the reproduction of a good hard rimshot can produce spl's outside the capabity of most systems anyway. On the other hand it is the very rare recording of music in the popular genre that can even offer cymbals that don't sound more like the burst of an air hose. :(
Try this: Drums & Bells Loudspeaker Evaluation CD

Tony Minasian has sent me several more recordings that greatly expand the range. These are sound demos, btw, with minimal musical content.
 

Sal1950

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Kal Rubinson

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OH MY, I thought you were pointing me to a cool download, he wants $25 for the cd plus whatever for shipping?
What do you think my name is, Savage? :eek: LOL
Sorry for the offense. It is what it is.
 

Head_Unit

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One can have a commercial enterprise and still act ethically. I admit that in this business, it's the exception.
Yeah, Diogenes would have died of old age in his barrel...
 
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