Anyone read the latest from archimago's take on Stereophile editorial? Linked here:

[Jmsent]

I didn't know there could be any connection between a KEF woofer and the Thiel 2.7 woofer. I'm presuming they used the same woofer in the 2.7 that came from the 2.4, which Thiel said in a demo it was an "8 inch long throw woofer from Thiel." They re-used that, no doubt, to get size/costs down from the flagship 3.7 (which I also owned). The 3.7's drivers were all definitely designed by Thiel including the woofers (which were corrugated to some degree as well).

There was no connection between KEF and Thiel. The oval thing people here are commenting on is a passive radiator, not a woofer. Thiel started out using custome Vifa and SEAS components. Around the time of the 2.4, Jim embarked on a project of doing his own drivers, because the OEM driver makers really didn't want to touch his new designs. With the exception of the basket, they demanded totally new components in the motor, suspension, coil, and cone assemblies. Such work was incredibly time consuming and the payback wasn't there, given the relatively small volume of a customer like Thiel. He then went with sourcing his driver components from suppliers in China (and elsewhere), and built the drivers in house. That was mostly a disaster, and a big reason why his new models were often so late to market. Driver manufacturing is a very specialized and tricky process, and the learning curve is quite steep. (Full disclosure: I worked for a Scandinavian driver manufacturer for over 20 years) In the end, much of Thiel's driver stock was made in China, to his specifications. I don't know who the OEM was, but there were many back in the day.

 

[anmpr1]

Of course the effect in the medical field is more deadly than in audio, but the widespread denial of settled science...

Since when is 'science' settled? I mean, I guess the 'science' of apples falling off a tree is settled. Or that too much electricity in too short a time can kill you. Medicine? Medicine is a different thing, altogether. What is settled? Anyone looking can find a huge list of 'treatments' from 'medical science' that turned out to be bogus, unhelpful, and downright dangerous.

The fact that the guy running the Archimago blog is a medical doctor doesn't mean anything to me. Like doctors and their controlling organizations are per se infallible? Is that his point? That doctors are ipso facto honest, impartial scientists? Why would I believe that? I'd probably want to know more before I'd accept his health advice, although his audio blog seems pretty straight.

With this in mind, I presume, anent Spenser, that the title of his blog refers to hi-fi charlatans, and not the blog writer? He's probably clarified that, somewhere.

As far as a similarity between the workings of medicine and hi-fi? It is not far fetched. Hi-fi companies 'pay' for advertisements (reviews). Payment to reviewers is not cash (other than ads), but a lot of in-kind stuff. Perks. The same thing goes on in medicine. Don't kid yourself. Only on a much larger scale. Much much larger.

One big difference between the two is that medical operations don't dictate what amplifier you must buy in order for you to get and keep a job. And your insurance won't pay for a new amplifier, every year. And generally, while an amplifier might figuratively 'take your breath away' and 'make your heart beat faster' (at least for the sensitive reviewer), it won't be a literal thing. Not like perhaps the latest and greatest concoction Big Pharma pays docs to push on unsuspecting 'patients', who are then told to 'trust the science'.

In some cases, like audio dealers, doctors are being displaced by 'direct to consumer' operations. In my area you can get 'treatment' for the latest mystery disease, at your local grocery store. You don't even need to go to the doctor for your monthly boost of whatever it is the pharmaceutical companies are giving out. At no out of pocket cost to the consumer! It is not exactly clear how those help your health--what they do for you that is beneficial, but it's not clear what fancy interconnects do for you, either. I don't think fancy interconnects clot up the electrons going from your preamp to your amp, though. I don't think they do that. Maybe that's what cable 'burn in' is for.

All in all, some might argue that it is safer to your health (if not your pocketbook) to buy the latest tweako tube amp, or mystery cable, than it is to visit you doctor.

Stay fit, exercise, don't be overweight, don't over drink, don't eat processed foods. And when the end comes, don't worry about it. We are all in the same boat. If I was playing a doctor on television, that would be my recipe for good health.

 

[Willem]

Life expectancy at birth has roughly tripled during the last 150 years. We owe that to real science rather than quacks and sceptics.

 

[anmpr1]

Life expectancy at birth has roughly tripled during the last 150 years. We owe that to real science rather than quacks and sceptics.

Like I mentioned, nutrition and right living is the key to the highway. IMO. I'm not sure medicine has, on its own, ever tripled an 'average' lifespan, BTW. But you are certainly right about 'real' science, if by that you mean practical R&D with subsequent inventions and improvements in: food science (agriculture); indoor plumbing and waste treatment; general hygiene; machines doing the heavy lifting, and so forth... The downside of tech includes a sedentary lifestyle, massed produced soda pop in plastic bottles, and bagged potato chips for breakfast. Or at least some are saying that.

And it is true that in the West we generally hold doctors higher on the esteem ladder. Marcus Welby, Ben Casey, that young and handsome Kildare guy. It's understood. Ironically, however, in the tweako high end, often times it's physicians who buy the expensive, weird and crazy stuff. Why? Because they are part of a group who can afford it.

Funny story follows. I recall how a well known and (self) important physician wrote to Peter Aczel, condescendingly advising Peter that both he and his 'associates' (probably other physician audio hobbyists) had concluded that Aczel was wrong with his judgements of certain audio gear. What supporting evidence did Doc Audio send in order to back up his alternate claims? He enclosed his multi-page CV, showing that he was indeed a well respected and dedicated follower of fashion (apologies to Ray Davies).

Peter, in his usual snarky (but always funny) way, quipped that it was likely doc's upbringing and medical schooling (in Austria) that was responsible for his lack of humor, questionable bedside manner, and odd priorities. Questioning why such an important personage tasked with healing (tripling the populace's lifespan?) cared one way or the other about what a relatively unimportant audio journalist wrote? What would make such a man take the time out of a busy healing schedule, copying his his CV and stuffing it into an oversized envelope requiring extra postage, thinking how that would somehow bolster contrary audio opinions? (My guess was that he probably had his nurse Xerox the CV and mail it.) Unlike Peter and Ray, who both had a sharp sense of the comedic and ironic, doc wasn't quite there, yet.

Getting back the Archi... I'm not saying he's not a good doctor. I'm just saying that a doctor (good or not), or for that matter a music loving dentist, doesn't mean much, when it comes to having a 'scientific' attitude towards reviewing audio gear. Why he mentioned it as important is a head scratcher to me.

 

[dc655321]

Getting back the Archi... I'm not saying he's not a good doctor. I'm just saying that a doctor (good or not), or for that matter a music loving dentist, doesn't mean much, when it comes to having a 'scientific' attitude towards reviewing audio gear. Why he mentioned it as important is a head scratcher to me.

Would there be less cranium messaging if, in addition to the M.D. designation, there was also a PhD? Hence, maybe some familiarity with research practices?

 

[anmpr1]

Would there be less cranium messaging if, in addition to the M.D. designation, there was also a PhD? Hence, maybe some familiarity with research practices?

I think it just depends on the person, and how involved they are when getting outside of their area of expertise. A guy doing bypass surgery all day is no doubt on the higher end of the intelligence and capability scale, but when it comes other areas of tech, and figuring out how it works? I don't know that it necessarily follows. I think it's worse in audio, because anyone who has been in a high-end store, and has been 'coached' by an audio jockey floor salesman, is at once able to 'hear' differences everything makes. Hell, people 'hear' differences in the same component, when it is switched into itself. If you 'trust' you hearing in a casual manner, it's all over for you.

On the other hand, I imagine that someone with a PhD in psycho-acoustics from MIT would likely have less truck with high-end nonsense than, say, a crack team of neuro-surgeon PhDs teaching at Johns Hopkins. But if you need brain surgery, the psycho-acoustician isn't the man you're going to consult.

Those with doctorates in EE, or digital theory--at least the ones I've read and who have ventured down into the slums of hi-fi (R.A. Greiner, Marshall Leach, Stanley Lipshitz, John Vanderkooy et al) certainly don't buy into the strange.

 

[egellings]

Aczel took no prisoners!

 

[Timcognito]

Life expectancy at birth has roughly tripled during the last 150 years. We owe that to real science rather than quacks and sceptics.

And in part we owe climate change from over population to that too. More resources consumed by more people.

 

[Mojo Warrior]

Skepticism encourages critical thinking.

The world needs more of that. I did use an extreme example to make my point. However, I could use many other medical situations that do not involve life vs death outcomes in medicine. For example, questioning an orthopedic surgeon whether an operation (financial reward) would be of benefit to the client in the long term or would non-surgical treatments result in a better quality of life? I cannot begin to tell you how many people that I know have ended up with one leg significantly shorter after a hip replacement and severe pain in every joint from their ankles to their neck after hip surgery.

I could fill an entire orthopedic surgery thread but the similarities with hifi remain.

Objectivists vs Subjectivists

Evidence based medicine/bench tested vs Industry promoted healthcare/vague specifications
Expensive healthcare/it must be better vs cost effective healthcare/law of diminishing returns
Physician/Dealer/manufacturer profits vs customer value, quality of life
Maximum profit pharmaceuticals/Snake Oil vs competitively priced pharmaceuticals
Drugs that are tested for efficacy and potency vs just trust me it works on horses/Snake Oil

We are free to make our choices then live with the consequences in hifi and life.

 

[BlackTalon]

...or for that matter a music loving dentist...

Hmm, can you give a referral? All I get are dentists who pipe in Muzak... ...through small coaxial cones in the ceiling that even a GD "Research" mini-monitor could actually slay.

 

[krabapple]

It's VERY good. It’s towards the Stereophile editorial that snuck in a jab at Amir.

Summer Musings: On Stereophile's "Quackery, Gullibility, and Open-mindedness". Nature of audio devices. Truths in audio (and medicine).

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

For a devout Catholic, Ross Douthat sure has a lot of journalistic sins to answer for.

(Yes, I read his original essay about his dubious 'treatment' for his Lyme disease, back in October)

This Stereophile 'J-school' exile who quotes him is just another audiophool sophist, and bravo Archimago for calling him out. And for suggesting that extreme audiophoolia is a mental health issue

 

[krabapple]

Like I mentioned, nutrition and right living is the key to the highway. IMO. I'm not sure medicine has, on its own, ever tripled an 'average' lifespan, BTW. But you are certainly right about 'real' science, if by that you mean practical R&D with subsequent inventions and improvements in: food science (agriculture); indoor plumbing and waste treatment; general hygiene; machines doing the heavy lifting, and so forth... The downside of tech includes a sedentary lifestyle, massed produced soda pop in plastic bottles, and bagged potato chips for breakfast. Or at least some are saying that.

If you don't think medical science involves 'practical R&D' , or isn't 'real' science you are wrong. Offensively so.

And it is true that in the West we generally hold doctors higher on the esteem ladder. Marcus Welby, Ben Casey, that young and handsome Kildare guy. It's understood. Ironically, however, in the tweako high end, often times it's physicians who buy the expensive, weird and crazy stuff. Why? Because they are part of a group who can afford it.

I'm guessing you are in the late stages of life, given those amusingly ancient TV references. I suspect medical science will play larger role in it, in coming years. Please keep us posted on your insights about its inadequacy.

Getting back the Archi... I'm not saying he's not a good doctor. I'm just saying that a doctor (good or not), or for that matter a music loving dentist, doesn't mean much, when it comes to having a 'scientific' attitude towards reviewing audio gear. Why he mentioned it as important is a head scratcher to me.

Because the article he replied to brought up mainstream vs 'alternative' medicine as a central trope.

 

[teched58]

What the heck is going on at Stereophile? When this thread started, we could talk about Stereophile as a viable part of the audiophile ecosystem. Now, they have completely jumped the shark. Is anyone home there? I could 10 (ten!!) very short and information-poor stories from Jason Victor Serinus from the Pacific Audio Fest. There are no comments on most of them. So, no interesting stories and no reader engagement.

Where is Jim Austin and what is his editorial policy? Is Jason Victor Serinus -- a non-engineer who seems like a nice guy but doesn't know anything about electronics -- now their main correspondent? It seems like it. (I exclude John Atkinson from any criticism. He has a speaker review on the home page. We need more of him, not less.) And we now have Alex Halberstadt, a polished writer who I think has appeared in the Times and other mainstream outlets, reviewing DACs -- a subject which seems new to him.

Here's the kicker: AnalogPlanet today -- yes, the Fremer-less AnalogPlanet -- has a more interesting home page than Stereophile!!! (Yes, I know it's mostly record reviews. But there's also the thread on Mofi's AAA lies, which has 75 comments --engagement rarely seen on Stereophile.)

I wish @John Atkinson had not retired. I fear he was our last hope and Stereophile is ever more quickly swirling around the drainpipe as it drowns.

 

[krabapple]

Hmm, you're talking about John Atkinson, the Stereophile editor who pretty much rejected the utility of blind tests for audio gear evaluation, right?

 

[rdenney]

Hmm, you're talking about the John Atkinson, the Stereophile editor who pretty much rejected the utility of blind tests for audio gear evaluaton, right?

Well, nobody's perfect. But he was the last bastion of objective measurement at Stereophile, and his retirement has made things worse. But JA also had to pander to his advertisers--and his readers. The truth is that the market for such a magazine has so completely abandoned data-driven product reviews that JA might have been seen as holding them back even without the advertisers. Nothing separates people from their money like emotional beliefs, and nothing separates people from their emotional beliefs other than a significant emotional event, which for many cannot be instigated by data.

I like the word "truthiness". So much of the snake-oil hype is driven by truthiness--stuff that sounds true to people with no education in the topic. The problem is that without that education they have only faith and often cannot be persuaded by any amount of data. People are simultaneously cynical and credulous. They know they are being worked by everyone, but they lack the discernment to know who to believe. Data is so often distorted and misapplied that people are cynical about it.

Rick "audio isn't the only subject where the value of data has been so undermined" Denney

 

[krabapple]

Well, nobody's perfect.

LOL.

I stopped there.

krab 'as usual' apple

 

[Mart68]

I think the juxtaposition is very relevant. Of course the effect in the medical field is more deadly than in audio, but the widespread denial of settled science, be it in audio, on climate change, vaccines or various dangerous forms of alternative "medicine" all undermine the methodological standard we as humans have successfully developed to distinguish truth from falsehood. That methodological standard applies across the board, so abandon it in one area, and there is no longer a reason to apply it anywhere. The trend seems to come with a blurring of the distinction between facts and opinions, as if facts are just opinions and thus can be equally personal, and deserving of democratic respect.
I am not quite sure how to explain the trend. It may have something to do with the rise of political extremism on the far right, but also with post modernist subjectivism, mostly on the left. For example anti vax sentiment in the Netherlands is as much a thing of the uneducated ultra right as it is of well educated privileged pretty woke types. And of course views on such things do not completely correlate: not all anti vaxers are also climate change deniers. So what is happening and what is the sociology of it (I am not particularly interested in the politics)?
As for audiophoolery, is there a social group that is particularly prone to this nonsense? Since snake oil audio tends to be expensive, I would expect it to be a thing for the well heeled, but is it? I did indeed see expressions of the kind "you deny the effect of this particular 20k technology that cannot be measured but makes a night and day difference for no other reason than that you are jealous that you cannot afford it". I guess part of the hatred towards ASR thus comes from the analogy with the story of the emperor's new clothes.

I don't subscribe to the idea that many people rejecting or being totally ignorant of science is a new thing. I think history shows that it has always been the case. The internet has just made it more obvious to everyone.

But in some cases it is not a question of 'denying' science, I know people who are experts in their professional fields but still think their power cables improve the sound. They are not stupid, or science deniers, they just don't have any knowledge in the relevant areas and lack the time and, for various reasons, the inclination to learn. I suspect that's true of the vast majority of hi-fi enthusiasts.

I can't agree that energising a magnet with DC to vibrate a cone is really on a par with the complexities of medical science or climate science. It's certain that our knowledge of the latter two is still incomplete whereas the former was completely understood a hundred years ago.

 

[anmpr1]

What the heck is going on at Stereophile? ... Is Jason Victor Serinus -- a non-engineer who seems like a nice guy but doesn't know anything about electronics -- now their main correspondent?

In one of his reports Vic writes: The Gulf Stream has a Roon interface, bespoke power supply, and proprietary Linux kernel.

Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me here. I was under the impression that the Linux kernel is licensed under the GPL, making it 'free' (open source) software. Is a proprietary Linux kernel even possible?

 

[anmpr1]

Hmm, you're talking about John Atkinson, the Stereophile editor who pretty much rejected the utility of blind tests for audio gear evaluation, right?

John is about the only one I know who is measuring this really expensive, limited distribution gear. For that we are thankful. You just have to read around his editorial comments.

 

[egellings]

Douchehat...