Anybody PREFER listening to music on bookshelves or tower speakers only (without the subwoofer)?

[Madlop26]

Same here.

I had never heard a set up with subwoofers that didn't sound "like a set up with added subwoofers." Over and over through the years I would hear "it's just that you haven't heard it done right, check out my system" and I would...and I kept hearing the subwoofers.

You are basically taking speakers - your main speakers - that have been carefully and arduously designed by a (hopefully) experienced, competent speaker designer, and saying "let ME try" and becoming your own speaker designer, adding drivers, crossover points etc. From what I've heard, most aren't up to the task of doing this seamlessly.

I finally tried myself to get good subwoofer integration...got it close to as good as I've heard. But I still preferred my speakers without the subs.

I certainly don't want to claim invisible integration of subs isn't possible. I'm amazed at the time and resources some have put in to trying to achieve this.
I'm just saying that to this point, I still haven't heard it done to my satisfaction.

interesting, I imagine all those sets up you heard had a decent flat response along the spectrum, and still, you did not like them much; but, do you like bigger speakers that can handle sub bass frequencies well?, right?

 

[MattHooper]

interesting, I imagine all those sets up you heard had a decent flat response along the spectrum, and still, you did not like them much; but, do you like bigger speakers that can handle sub bass frequencies well?, right?

First, I don't want to claim anything beyond how I perceived things on this matter.

But in the different set ups I hadn't seen any room measurements, but the claims were "I've done a lot of work and integrated the subs seamlessly." I didn't find it to be the case. I often found the subs still too prominent. I surmised that many who get subwoofers, and who may even pay lip service to neutrality, still want to hear the subs they paid money for and goose it enough until "yeah, the suboofers are there doing something" and they just get used to that. Just conjecture.

That's why I figured maybe I could dial them in to my own satisfaction. I was frankly amazed at how close I got to a seamless blend. But in the end I preferred the punch and tonality of my speakers without the subs. I'm used to floor standers, like my current Thiel and Joseph speakers, that go down to around (rated) 35Hz.
I've also owned floor standers that went down to 25Hz.

I do live with a bit of a bass boost though which can rear it's head. It's just that I find the speakers sound tonally more like the speaker I liked, that I bought, without the subs. They changed with the subwoofers in a way I didn't care for.

(BTW, I'm also used to hearing the sound of professional mixing studios which have subwoofers, all pink noised and dialed in. They sound amazing, though admittedly when I'm in the studio I'm not really concentrating on the same things...e.g. are the subs perfectly integrated?...but more about the creative aspect of the sound we are working on).

 

[Madlop26]

Sorry, I am not trying to be dismissive, but to learn, maybe some people don't like sub frequencies to be too loud, or that is all about it, or maybe there is actually something intrinsic wrong still in the attempts to integrate subs to a well-designed bookshelves. I do not have big towers so I can not do my own comparison, I am about to buy the Revel M126Be, also tempted for the F228Be but at double the cost..... well what do I care....my wife will murder me either way lol

 

[MattHooper]

I really don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with the idea of integrating subwoofers. The theory bears out the benefits, and many proclaim it works well in practice. I don't doubt it can work well. It's just that, as I said, it really is like asking the consumer to become a speaker designer of sorts and try to integrate different drivers and altering crossovers - a domain that speaker designers have spent years trying to perfect. It doesn't surprise me that it is difficult and many don't achieve the coherence found in a well-designed tower speaker.

 

[Doodski]

it really is like asking the consumer to become a speaker designer of sorts and try to integrate different drivers and altering crossovers

Yes, although there are controls and adjustments that can be made at the panel of most subs and the new ones have cel tel control of all parameters with DSP. So it's not all written in stone stuff.

It doesn't surprise me that it is difficult and many don't achieve the coherence found in a well-designed tower speaker.

Neither is true to form anyway because they all sound off and are colored in some way.

 

[Chrispy]

I prefer using my subs, altho currently my one 2-ch setup doesn't have any but rarely use that one too. With multiple subs and decent integration, localization hasn't been an issue. I definitely don't "hear" the subs casually....until I turn them off and notice the deficit. Even if I had actual full range speakers (i.e. capable of at least 20hz at high spl) I'd likely still use subs for better placement/integration in the room itself. I also prefer multich audio if I can get it, and do like low bass a lot and rather be prepared for it than not.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

A poorly integrated sub or subs will screw up the sound, and doing it right requires knowledge and skill. Getting it done correctly is very rewarding, but it's not all that easy and it's time-consuming. Once you've learned about placement and can freely adjust level, frequency response, delay and phase with the aid of a spectrum analyzer and do it a few times, it's a cinch. But just plopping a sub down an doing rudimentary tweaking by ear probably won't work very well and it'll be frustrating.

There might be some highly experienced people out there who can do it that way, but I'm not one of them. With experience, I've learned to cue-in on the phasiness and "misplaced" bass "imaging" and hear it get worse and improve when you're tweaking, but you have to be in the ball park before you can hear delay and phase go in and out of "focus." When everything's right, the bass generally sounds centered in front of you and not coming from the rear corners of the room, spatially detached from everything else.

Also, it's very important to equalize-out any particular frequency that your room dimensions are boosting dramatically, muddying everything up.

 

[DMill]

I surmised that many who get subwoofers, and who may even pay lip service to neutrality, still want to hear the subs they paid money for and goose it enough until "yeah, the suboofers are there doing something" and they just get used to that. Just conjecture.

This is a really interesting thread and I am actually a bit surprised. I have to agree with the portion of Matt’s post that I copied. We spend good money on subs and my first inclination when I finally got one this last year was to want to hear it, even though I know it’s supposed to blend. In my case it was an attempt to augment bookshelves that only reach down to maybe 55 or 60HZ comfortably. This conversation certainly has me asking myself if I am a bass head as I do prefer it with the sub,

 

[JSmith]

An interesting take;

Drop the Bass: A Case Against Subwoofers

Though bass-boosting subwoofers are everywhere nowadays, Damon Krukowski argues that, for certain styles of music, these low-end behemoths are actually ruining our listening experiences.

pitchfork.com

The case against subwoofers for music

For home theater and games, sure, subwoofers can provide deep bass oomph that speakers alone can’t match.

www.cnet.com

JSmith

 

[srrxr71]

I did the same thing with my Monster HTPS 7000MkII power conditioner. The top cover was signing its own tune at certain low frequencies and man was it audible. LOL.
I placed this product inside the cover plate and it helped.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0751CBXBT?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Had to stuff a curtain into a fireplace to stop its resonance (31.5Hz sine wave made it go crazy).

Had to place bass traps to cut out actual wall resonance at 25Hz.

The room does okay in a 20Hz-20KHz sine wave sweep. Some issues at 100Hz but some ceiling panels will fix that.

Deep bass can rattle structural elements and for that reason some rooms will need a lot of work.

Both those frequencies however may never be touched by someone who doesn’t listen to electronic music.

 

[rwortman]

My PSB towers go down into the mid 30’s. I did not already have a sub for my HT setup, I don’t think I would buy one. There isn’t much content below 40hz in most music so it really should’t be doing much. I read somewhere that most people to prefer about 6db of tilt up in the low bass (below 60hz) so I have mine set to augment the mains in that region rather than crank up the woofer excursion via EQ in the mains. I don’t hear the sub as a separate source, it just makes the bottom end sound a bit more solid. Maybe someone else wouldn’t like it? Who knows. We build our systems for ourselves.

 

[rwortman]

This is a really interesting thread and I am actually a bit surprised. I have to agree with the portion of Matt’s post that I copied. We spend good money on subs and my first inclination when I finally got one this last year was to want to hear it, even though I know it’s supposed to blend. In my case it was an attempt to augment bookshelves that only reach down to maybe 55 or 60HZ comfortably. This conversation certainly has me asking myself if I am a bass head as I do prefer it with the sub,

I have installed HT systems for people and after calibration they all thought they wanted to hear the subwoofer more. Reading one of the linked articles referring to live sound. That’s different. Live sound subs are really “sub” woofers. The are woofers. Even the big two way PA speakers have a frequency response like a home 6” two way. The line arrays in common use tdoay don’t go even go that low. Live sound “subs” are necessary to get a balanced sound.

The only time I really notice my sub is from TV and movie fx.

 

[Sancus]

An interesting take;

Drop the Bass: A Case Against Subwoofers

Though bass-boosting subwoofers are everywhere nowadays, Damon Krukowski argues that, for certain styles of music, these low-end behemoths are actually ruining our listening experiences.

pitchfork.com

The case against subwoofers for music

For home theater and games, sure, subwoofers can provide deep bass oomph that speakers alone can’t match.

www.cnet.com

JSmith

Pairing Guttenberg's delusional ravings with anything else does not a convincing formula make, lol.

 

[ryanosaur]

There isn’t much content below 40hz in most music

Piano goes down to 29Hz.

 

[Chromatischism]

The subs are never turned off in my system no matter what the content is. They are calibrated to represent a spectrum of 10 Hz to 20 kHz with the subs and speakers working as a unit. They are integrated for 11-channel movies just as well as 2-channel music. The number of speakers doesn't determine sub use. Though when I turn them off, all you hear is the bottom end get quieter.

Denon X4500H
Room-corrected (required or you may prefer no subs)

There isn’t much content below 40hz in most music

Yet if your sub doesn't extend to 20 Hz, it is noticeable.

Very difficult to get bass balance right, and a sub makes it harder; get it even a little wrong, and the bass sounds "off".

Definitely. Lots of tweaking can be required to get the sub frequency response and level just right. This is even true when adjusting IEM's in that same region. It's our hearing that's so finicky

I've never heard a single 2 channel system, regardless of price, expertise in so-called setup/integration, or pedigree, where the subwoofers didn't just betray themselves, but they also ruined the stereo experience.

Would love to give you a demo to change your mind, though the distance is a barrier.

I had never heard a set up with subwoofers that didn't sound "like a set up with added subwoofers."

And I'd be happy to give you a demo as well.

 

[rwortman]

Piano goes down to 29Hz.

Play me a piano recording and show me the spectrum. Doesn’t have much is not saying doesn’t have any. The piano may go that low but the piano player doesn’t play that key much, the piano mic doesn’t get much of it and the mix engineer carves most of it out unless it is a solo piano piece. I didn‘t say the sub does nothing, but properly set up with music it shouldn’t be doing a lot and therefore should not be drawing attention.

 

[rwortman]

Yet if your sub doesn't extend to 20 Hz, it is noticeable.

It is noticeable once in a while unless you listen to pipe organs and synthesized tones. A typical jazz combo or rock band is not playing anything at 20hz.

 

[Chromatischism]

It is noticeable once in a while unless you listen to pipe organs and synthesized tones. A typical jazz combo or rock band is not playing anything at 20hz.

Typically they aren't. However some music covers the full spectrum, especially modern stuff using synthesized sounds, so if you only go to 40 Hz, the music lacks the weight it would have with 20 Hz capability.

 

[ryanosaur]

Play me a piano recording and show me the spectrum. Doesn’t have much is not saying doesn’t have any. The piano may go that low but the piano player doesn’t play that key much, the piano mic doesn’t get much of it and the mix engineer carves most of it out unless it is a solo piano piece. I didn‘t say the sub does nothing, but properly set up with music it shouldn’t be doing a lot and therefore should not be drawing attention.

Don't be foolish, please... that's not what I was saying and you seem smart enough to know it. Any music lover that thinks a 40Hz extension is giving them all they need is selling themselves short. It's not the first time somebody has made that claim and I know it won't be the last. Regardless, it is tiring and trite if you are in any way interested in reproducing what any musical instrument can capably do.

 

[ryanosaur]

Here's a good example of why extension may matter:

Why the extra keys? The Bösendorfer Imperial Grand Piano

Alec Coles-Aldridge, a student at the Royal College of Music shares his thoughts on the subject ...

www.pianistmagazine.com

Cheers.

BTW, my music school had one of these in the recital hall which accompanied me on a couple performances. And YES... it is impressive.