Anybody PREFER listening to music on bookshelves or tower speakers only (without the subwoofer)?

[bluefuzz]

I couldn't imagine listening to music without a sub now. It takes the strain of the LXminis to produce the bottom octaves. But I usually turn the sub off if I'm watching a movie or tv with a lot of crashing and banging (not that I watch a lot of that sort) as find that incredibly distracting and silly.

 

[restorer-john]

I have a pile of unused subwoofers. I just hate them. I wish I didn't but that's the way of it. Foolishly, I buy some now and then, the last pair of PSBs are totally covered in dust in a pile about to be sent to the storeroom...

I've never heard a single 2 channel system, regardless of price, expertise in so-called setup/integration, or pedigree, where the subwoofers didn't just betray themselves, but they also ruined the stereo experience.

Even putting subwoofers under the mains or right next to them, just doesn't work for me. Other people, I dunno. Great for HT where the soundtrack is just there for effects and fun.

 

[Sokel]

I have a pile of unused subwoofers. I just hate them. I wish I didn't but that's the way of it. Foolishly, I buy some now and then, the last pair of PSBs are totally covered in dust in a pile about to be sent to the storeroom...

I've never heard a single 2 channel system, regardless of price, expertise in so-called setup/integration, or pedigree, where the subwoofers didn't just betray themselves, but they also ruined the stereo experience.

Even putting subwoofers under the mains or right next to them, just doesn't work for me. Other people, I dunno. Great for HT where the soundtrack is just there for effects and fun.

I suffer from the exact same disease.I tried hard to like them but no luck.
I even tried to fool myself with the test but didn't work for me,knowing is there was enough to localize them couldn't fool myself enough.

For anyone who want to try:

Low Frequency (Subwoofer) Sound Localization Test

Why you really don't want to hear where your low frequencies are coming from!

www.audiocheck.net

 

[restorer-john]

I suffer from the exact same disease.I tried hard to like them but no luck.

I think I have about a 10 or 12 subwoofers of various types. Many I have given away to "bass heads". My boys got a few each. My best friend who is also somewhat of an audiophile and listens to AC/DC can't stand subwoofers either.

I'd really like to hear somebody, somewhere, who has a full range system where the subwoofers actually round out the bottom end seamlessly*

* grossly overused word, but correct in this instance.

 

[Vacceo]

There is a little cheap integrated system at home (the classic Aiwa from the 90's) that I find myself despising more and more precisely due to the lack of bass.

Most of what I listen to has a serious amount of hard percussion and little speakers do not cut it.

For visual content, the shortcomings are even more evident.

 

[sigbergaudio]

This is always due to lacking integration, and yes it can be difficult.

Would be great fun to convince someone like @restorer-john that it is indeed possible to make it sound so integrated you wouldn't know the subs were there, but I guess he's not in Norway very often.

 

[Doodski]

I'd really like to hear somebody, somewhere, who has a full range system where the subwoofers actually round out the bottom end seamlessly*

I've found that Fc needs to be lower than the ear can detect the sub and just enough thump and boom and not too much. Otherwise if it's Friday night then crank it uP! But seriously have you been using decent subs?

 

[DJNX]

I use a subwoofer with my towers.

Thank god for AVR’s bass management. After finding a nice spot for the sub, I ran the calibration tool, and the integration is great. The sub really disappears. I also decoupled the sub from the floor, so no shaking, rattling or any other weird stuff going on, other than the direct sound itself.

The difference is easy to AB. I just switch from "Direct" mode (pure 2 channel) to "Stereo" (which uses DSP to crossover into the subwoofer). The bottom end of the music become fuller, without becoming louder or boomier.

Absolutely any speaker benefits from a subwoofer, regardless of the music you listen to.
I blame non AVR hardware makers for making it such a pain to properly integrate subwoofers, because a properly integrated sub beautifully extends the range of any system, seamlessly.

 

[Talisman]

Bookshelf speakers probably don't go low enough to guarantee the full musical experience, but good floorstanding speakers with large woofers are my favorite thing in listening to music, the sub to really make the sound better has to be obsessively integrated, carefully positioned and meticulously adjusted. Too much flutter for me. I think I would live serenely with klipsch rp8000f with double 8 woofer without going crazy.

 

[SDC]

In my case I can hear tiny bit more bass with subs cause the dips are filled.
DSP on off six subs and crossover at once so easy comparison.
I enjoy them both but like the fact that I'm not losing any tone with subs.


But it is true many don't enjoy flat bass. Because there is always floor bounce and cancelation. Filling that up could sound dull and unnatural.
IMO similar to center speaker filling up the dips caused by HRTF. Some like it some not. pick your poison...

 

[Vacceo]

I use a subwoofer with my towers.

Thank god for AVR’s bass management. After finding a nice spot for the sub, I ran the calibration tool, and the integration is great. The sub really disappears. I also decoupled the sub from the floor, so no shaking, rattling or any other weird stuff going on, other than the direct sound itself.

The difference is easy to AB. I just switch from "Direct" mode (pure 2 channel) to "Stereo" (which uses DSP to crossover into the subwoofer). The bottom end of the music become fuller, without becoming louder or boomier.

Absolutely any speaker benefits from a subwoofer, regardless of the music you listen to.
I blame non AVR hardware makers for making it such a pain to properly integrate subwoofers, because a properly integrated sub beautifully extends the range of any system, seamlessly.

I think that for me, subwoofers are a must because I use my system for everything: music, gaming, films, series... The system has to be able to reproduce anything you play, so it is not realistic to expect full range, including infrasonics, just from towers.

 

[Tangband]

Most subwoofers are wrongly placed in corners and have substandard crossovers , and people sometimes dont use a HP crossovers for the main speakers. This is one of the reason for a worse sound . Another reason is using only one sub and cross it to high with a shallow LP filter.
Third resason for bad sound is using to small subwoofer- boxes combined with bass tubes .

Fourth reason for bad sound : people dont have a clue how to install the main speakers for best result. The bass quality of an electric bass guitar is mostly depending on the register 80 Hz - 8 KHz , not the subwoofer frequencies. The two main loudspeaker must play bass in a good way in the room even without a subwoofer.

If the two main speakers are wrongly installed in the room, the bass quality wont be anybetter even with the worlds best subwoofer and the best crossovers.

 

[srrxr71]

A lot of people do. In fact I think limiting bass is an old audiophile trick. It’s why stereophile has a “limited LF class A” category. People paying $20k for the LF limited super bookshelf. Haha

It’s also why I posit that vinyl sounds so good. Mostly cuts off the bottom 2 octaves and sometimes the top 2 to match.

That sounds pleasant.

Deep bass is horribly nearly impossible to manage in an average listening room. Often we just prefer to cut it out than to let it muddy up the rest of the spectrum.

If you can properly room correct and phase/time align your subs in your room then that’s a different story.

 

[anotherhobby]

I was never happy using subs with music until I went to dual subs (one by each main) and learned how to dial them in with a measurement mic and DSP. Dual subs placed next to the mains solves the localization/balance issue for me (vs one sub off to one side or in a corner). In my case, to get the integration good I had to use MSO filters combined with Audyssey, and then added some of my own additional EQ on top of that using MultEQ-X.

The uncorrected response without DSP is pretty awful. I would not like my dual JL Audio e112's at all if this was how I used them. I'd just run my mains and call it good. Subs need DSP to sound good in a room.

 

[Peluvius]

This is always due to lacking integration, and yes it can be difficult.

Would be great fun to convince someone like @restorer-john that it is indeed possible to make it sound so integrated you wouldn't know the subs were there, but I guess he's not in Norway very often.

I used to prefer sub off when listening to music because I could tell where it was coming from. In my living room/Home Theatre room I have still not been able to integrate my sub well enough to achieve this illusion/effect however in my 2.1 PC system I have been able to properly integrate the sub and cannot tell where it is, it just sounds like the speakers and I really miss it if I turn it off.

 

[mglobe]

I bought R3’s hoping the low end would be enough for me in a fairly large room. It wasn’t, so I bought a pair of Rythmiks, crossed over at 80 and level adjusted with the mInIDSP FLEX, and then Dirac corrected. I may not be a great listener, but I honestly can’t tell when the R3’s drop off and and subs pick up. I’d wager that if I could hide them from listeners, most people would just think the R3’s have amazing bass, not realizing there were subs in the equation. It works that well.

 

[sarumbear]

This is always due to lacking integration, and yes it can be difficult.

I agree. The problem is mainly caused by a user replacing a speaker designer in building a speaker system. As a normal user is not a speaker designer we shouldn’t expect correct integration, and it often isn’t.

2.1 is a cost saving exercise. 2.2 can be made to work but it requires knowledge in speaker design.

It is easier to simply buy larger speakers that deliver sub bass you want. There are many.

 

[Madlop26]

My first thoughts: if music has subbass frequencies why not listen to them?, is not the music incomplete without them?, but I am reading from very experienced people that subbass frequencies could degrade upper frequencies experience, which is a good point to consider.
Anyway, in my case, I could not live without my subwoofers. My listening room is small and has a lot of mods in the bass frequencies, after years of learning, trying and failing I think I finally got it right, well at least decent.

I have 2 SVS subwoofers, one 13-inch, and one 10-inch, and now the sub-bass frequencies sound just right and balanced. I tried the Harman songs today with and without subs, and confirmed, I am a subwoofer guy until I die.

 

[bo_knows]

Even with good neutral equalised setups sometimes transducers going very deep can excite the resonance frequencies of some furniture like for example closet doors, I had to add some layers of alu-butyl to damp them.

I did the same thing with my Monster HTPS 7000MkII power conditioner. The top cover was signing its own tune at certain low frequencies and man was it audible. LOL.
I placed this product inside the cover plate and it helped.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0751CBXBT?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

 

[MattHooper]

I have a pile of unused subwoofers. I just hate them. I wish I didn't but that's the way of it. Foolishly, I buy some now and then, the last pair of PSBs are totally covered in dust in a pile about to be sent to the storeroom...

I've never heard a single 2 channel system, regardless of price, expertise in so-called setup/integration, or pedigree, where the subwoofers didn't just betray themselves, but they also ruined the stereo experience.

Even putting subwoofers under the mains or right next to them, just doesn't work for me. Other people, I dunno. Great for HT where the soundtrack is just there for effects and fun.

Same here.

I had never heard a set up with subwoofers that didn't sound "like a set up with added subwoofers." Over and over through the years I would hear "it's just that you haven't heard it done right, check out my system" and I would...and I kept hearing the subwoofers.

You are basically taking speakers - your main speakers - that have been carefully and arduously designed by a (hopefully) experienced, competent speaker designer, and saying "let ME try" and becoming your own speaker designer, adding drivers, crossover points etc. From what I've heard, most aren't up to the task of doing this seamlessly.

I finally tried myself to get good subwoofer integration...got it close to as good as I've heard. But I still preferred my speakers without the subs.

I certainly don't want to claim invisible integration of subs isn't possible. I'm amazed at the time and resources some have put in to trying to achieve this.
I'm just saying that to this point, I still haven't heard it done to my satisfaction.