Anybody PREFER listening to music on bookshelves or tower speakers only (without the subwoofer)?

[sarumbear]

The room is 18x35’. The listening portion of the room is 17x18’. My sofa position less than halves the room into 17x8’.

The woofers are w371. No subs.

Assuming your ceiling height is 3m, your listening area around 27m3 and the listening area is around half of it. That’s around $400 per m3 spent on acoustical treatment elements, an exceedingly high figure unless it also includes acoustical services.

 

[srrxr71]

Assuming your ceiling height is 3m, your listening area around 27m3 and the listening area is around half of it. That’s around $400 per m3 spent on acoustical treatment elements, an exceedingly high figure unless it also includes acoustical services.

I did not pay for any services. Just the acoustic consultant at GIK.

Well 4 corners are about $500 each with soffit bass traps.

A lot was spent actually for isolation purposes. For example 2 windows had to be fully covered with 3 bass traps to prevent sound leakage outside.

The front wall is mostly covered from floor to almost ceiling for 2 reasons. One is to attenuate the sound of the HVAC condenser on the other side of that wall.

The second reason is to absorb all sounds behind the 77” TV. Otherwise there would be back and forth bouncing waves from the wall to the back of the TV.

There are scatter/diffusers on the back wall and I think that was about $1.2k.

Shipping for all of it is also about 15-20% of the cost.

Ceiling panels and mounts. Installation for that.

Those sound cubes are great but expensive. I bought 4 of those for the front wall in addition to the floor having 10” along the bottom margin. Those are also about $1.2k for just 4 with shipping and tax etc.

Also I had to cover a fireplace whose flue would resonate like crazy with certain frequencies. So there are 3 10” thick panels there.

The fireplace creates 2 nooks giving me actually 6 corners in this room.

It adds up very quickly. After all that none of it even does anything below about 70Hz. Maybe down to 50Hz but very minor effects down there if anything at all. It would take roughly a 3.5m thick corner trap to actually do much at such a low frequency.

Edit: also I forgot one of the reasons to hit the entire front wall was also that silly pillars were resonating back there. Not exactly pillars but dumb dry wall features that look like pillars. So there is an air space that likes to resonate. Even just the front wall itself likes to resonate. So covering that wall and hitting that “corner” with the “pillar” helped take those down.

 

[sarumbear]

I did not pay for any services. Just the acoustic consultant at GIK.

Well 4 corners are about $500 each with soffit bass traps.

A lot was spent actually for isolation purposes. For example 2 windows had to be fully covered with 3 bass traps to prevent sound leakage outside.

The front wall is mostly covered from floor to almost ceiling for 2 reasons. One is to attenuate the sound of the HVAC condenser on the other side of that wall.

The second reason is to absorb all sounds behind the 77” TV. Otherwise there would be back and forth bouncing waves from the wall to the back of the TV.

There are scatter/diffusers on the back wall and I think that was about $1.2k.

Shipping for all of it is also about 15-20% of the cost.

Ceiling panels and mounts. Installation for that.

Those sound cubes are great but expensive. I bought 4 of those for the front wall in addition to the floor having 10” along the bottom margin. Those are also about $1.2k for just 4 with shipping and tax etc.

Also I had to cover a fireplace whose flue would resonate like crazy with certain frequencies. So there are 3 10” thick panels there.

The fireplace creates 2 nooks giving me actually 6 corners in this room.

It adds up very quickly. After all that none of it even does anything below about 70Hz. Maybe down to 50Hz but very minor effects down there if anything at all. It would take roughly a 3.5m thick corner trap to actually do much at such a low frequency.

I read your word treatment literally as acoustic treatment, I’m sorry. Sound insulation can be very expensive as it’s an architectural job, which often requires structural change. On the other hand acoustic treatment is more like decoration, most changes are on the surface, hence usually costs less.

 

[srrxr71]

I read your word treatment literally as acoustic treatment, I’m sorry. Sound insulation can be very expensive as it’s an architectural job, which often requires structural change. On the other hand acoustic treatment is more like decoration, most changes are on the surface, hence usually costs less.

If I had the walls torn out and had MLV put in the cost would have been even more. But this isn’t my property here. However if I had to in a home that I actually own I would spend what it takes to get acoustic consulting and proper isolation and treatment.

My cost was just buying enough panels and placing them. I still could hit some areas better. I could put thicker traps on the windows. Windows are just bad news on both sides of the window. I could add 2 more behind the fridge to quiet that. I have some back wall I could hit. I have 2 more corners I could hit.

However the w371 is so well behaved I think I’ve more than hit the point of diminishing returns on room treatments. It’s more isolation that can be improved.

I don’t mind spending on panels because they can always come in handy even when I move into an owned space. They can even be doubled up in such a space if I have too many.

 

[Tangband]

If someone prefers their sound system without the lowest bass, they either have an integration problem or a room problem. If those two problems are dealt with properly, everyone will prefer the full-range sound.

It’s really hard to get those two things right.

Agree.
You must also have a subwoofer of good quality, at least as good as your main speaker. .
And they must be correctly installed in the room.

 

[dlaloum]

Things to keep in mind - most subwoofers, don't really have much below 20Hz... they are primarily designed for the 25Hz to 80Hz range (even though, in theory, that should be "woofer" range, and SUB woofers should cover the sub-sonic range 30Hz to 10Hz...)

Lots of full range speakers have decent performance (within -3db) at 25Hz - meaning they have equivalent performance to subwoofers

I have full range Gallo reference speakers, and a pair of Gallo subs (originally for another room, where they were paired with Gallo satellite speakers)

The F/R of the Gallo subs is almost identical to that of the full range speakers (in the bass)

I have some experience with "bookshelves" - and some "bookshelf" speakers, would require some pretty substantial cabinetry to support them on a shelf!!

Those kinds of Bookshelves often have substantial bass performance - and really are a full range speaker... but that often means down to 35Hz or 40Hz

Also quite a few classic full range speakers sound best on stands lifted off the ground... but those types typically have similar F/R to the larger Bookshelf types.

My own floorstanders are rated down to 35Hz if running them "normally" - but can also be biamped via a second voice coil on the woofer - which completely bypasses the crossover - and with an appropriately beefy power amp (circa 250W or more) - can take things down to 24Hz

However when measured in my room as part of my Dirac setup, and running off a 440W Crown amp, they get good response down to 24Hz without having to Biamp... so I have not bothered with the additional complexity.

Having the Subwoofers for the LFE channel is still of value - however I look forward to Dirac SRC/DLBC where I can properly integrate subs and full range mains for optimal performance ...

In days of yore, before RoomEQ and analysis was a thing, I often found that good bookshelves sounded better in many rooms, than full range speakers which would often end up sound "boomy" - sometimes that was a speaker design thing, sometimes a room integration and setup - but bookshelves did sound better more consistently in the "real world" than floorstanders.

Nowadays we have a wealth of tools with which to analyse and resolve such issues, I can see no reason to prefer bookshelves over full range speakers, except in cases where there is no room in the living arrangement for full range floor standers.

 

[Sancus]

Lots of full range speakers have decent performance (within -3db) at 25Hz - meaning they have equivalent performance to subwoofers

Extension tells you very little about how what sort of output you'll get at that frequency. Unless you're comparing really large speakers to really small subs, the speaker won't keep up.

 

[Chromatischism]

Agree.
You must also have a subwoofer of good quality, at least as good as your main speaker. .
And they must be correctly installed in the room.

My rule: if your main speakers cost less than $2k/pair, you shouldn't upgrade until you have subwoofers that cost more.

 

[Snarfie]

I'm driving a pair of Vandersteen speakers first with 2 separate subs.
Than i was making use of room correction DSP the subs became obsolete.

 

[dlaloum]

Extension tells you very little about how what sort of output you'll get at that frequency. Unless you're comparing really large speakers to really small subs, the speaker won't keep up.

Depends what you are trying to reproduce - Music in most cases does not have massive low bass content - it contributes to the timbre of many instruments, but almost never to fundamentals - so the actual demand on the low bass in music is almost always at relatively low SPL's.

Unless you want to reproduce some of the big pipe organs... there's just not much down there (in loudness terms)

Movies use that low zone for a lot of effects - that is a whole different ball game - and in many ways it makes sense keeping that seperate for a LFE channel - the requirements are for high SPL's, very low frequency, and low distortion is not a critical requirement.

Music on the other hand very low frequencies are a bonus, SPL's are not so important, but low distortion is absolutely critical to reproducing the timbre of the instruments.... horses for courses.

Extension and low distortion with SPL's non critical is great for music. - Hence small subs can do very well for music. (often sealed)
Extension with high SPL's pretty much requires large diameter subs with multiple subs - these tend to be more efficient, and produce much higher SPL's - usually ported (for increased efficiency/SPL's) - and many buyers don't care about distortion levels... they are secondary - these do well for movie effects.

Of course in a perfect world, we all want speakers that can produce both SPL's and low distortion - but budget and value then comes into the equation - and unless we have unlimited funds, we all have to choose our personal balance of various performance aspects - my priorities tend towards low distortion, and my listening preferences tend towards lower SPL's - so I am absolutely willing to sacrifice SPL's for lower distortion.

 

[Tangband]

Depends what you are trying to reproduce - Music in most cases does not have massive low bass content - it contributes to the timbre of many instruments, but almost never to fundamentals - so the actual demand on the low bass in music is almost always at relatively low SPL's.

Unless you want to reproduce some of the big pipe organs... there's just not much down there (in loudness terms)

Movies use that low zone for a lot of effects - that is a whole different ball game - and in many ways it makes sense keeping that seperate for a LFE channel - the requirements are for high SPL's, very low frequency, and low distortion is not a critical requirement.

Music on the other hand very low frequencies are a bonus, SPL's are not so important, but low distortion is absolutely critical to reproducing the timbre of the instruments.... horses for courses.

Extension and low distortion with SPL's non critical is great for music. - Hence small subs can do very well for music. (often sealed)
Extension with high SPL's pretty much requires large diameter subs with multiple subs - these tend to be more efficient, and produce much higher SPL's - usually ported (for increased efficiency/SPL's) - and many buyers don't care about distortion levels... they are secondary - these do well for movie effects.

Of course in a perfect world, we all want speakers that can produce both SPL's and low distortion - but budget and value then comes into the equation - and unless we have unlimited funds, we all have to choose our personal balance of various performance aspects - my priorities tend towards low distortion, and my listening preferences tend towards lower SPL's - so I am absolutely willing to sacrifice SPL's for lower distortion.

The lowest tone from a four string electric bass is about 41 Hz . If you listen to a lot of rock/pop, there isnt much musical information below 41Hz , in the form of tones.* But, you have the sence of impact from kickdrums and other instruments thats making listening more fun If you also have that last octave down to 20 Hz .

Another important thing, is that there are very few loudspeaker companies that are 100% truthful with their bass specification. Only Genelec and Neumann comes to mind.

This is were Amirms measurements is important .

I really wish that during 2023 Amirm should begin measuring subwoofers ..
That would be very interesting.

( * a five string bass guitar has its lowest note at about 31Hz .)

 

[dlaloum]

The lowest tone from an electric bass is about 39 Hz . If you listen to a lot of rock/pop, there isnt much musical information below 39 Hz , in the form of tones. But, you have the sence of impact from kickdrums and other instruments, thats making listening more fun If you also have that last octave down to 20 Hz .

Another important thing, is that there are very few loudspeaker companies that are 100% truthfull with their bass specification. Only Genelec and Neumann comes to mind.

This is were Amirms measurements is important .

I really wish that during 2023 Amirm should begin measuring subwoofers ..
That would be very interesting.

Yep - I agree...

I would very much like to see a build up of credible data on subwoofer performance... extension AND distortion

 

[RonSanderson]

More like feeling it I suppose. I have heard the brain will reconstruct the fundamental if it finds the harmonics in correct proportion.

At some point it’s a feeling and a sound. Deep bass is very hard to describe.

I can’t explain it.

I can switch between my monitors going down to 40hz or my subs taking that down to 16Hz in room. The major audible difference is the vocals just sound more real. The whole presentation sounds more real.

I don’t understand why or how nor do I have the words to describe it.

It’s a subtle but important difference. However I can see how in most cases it’s not worth the trouble. In fact you wouldn’t perceive anything as being “wrong” until hear the same music with properly integrated subs in place.

You will hear something wrong if they are not properly integrated.

In fact for practical and domestic purposes (kids need to go to bed, avoiding noise complaints) you might be better off not knowing the difference. Even if you do know you will find situations where the difference, while perceptible, Is not worth the potential headaches it could cause.

Ambient hall noise should essentially self-filter the high end but the bottom end is still there. Imagine standing on a stage and facing the hall. What reaches you is little more that a distant rumble. Yet, this low near-subsonic rumble may give a lot of information about the hall ambience and size. If you take it away, you lose some of the environment that defines the space of the performance.

And, no, I can’t measure or prove this. But I bet some of the members here could do that.