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Any to measure musical instruments, like pricey violins?

okok

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musical gears, some very high priced, how to determine the things are actually "better", or just worse than some others, like your expensive one can do one whole pitch lower than the others, more precise, and better (if not less) or good-to-hear thd
it can't be snake oil ain't it
 

GXAlan

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And to be clear, these tests confirm there are audible differences. It is just that the newer ones were preferred!
 

Keith_W

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Preference for the sound of certain instruments is a subjective thing, and can be influenced by the piece itself, the style of playing, and the cultural conditioning of the audience. I will illustrate this by comparing it to the whole "period vs. modern style", or "historically informed performances (HIP) vs. individual interpretation" debate in classical music.

When HIP/period performances started gaining popularity in the 60's, many musicians outright rejected it. The argument goes, "if Beethoven had access to a modern orchestra, he would be using a modern orchestra", vs. "the music was composed for smaller orchestras and less sonorous instruments of the period, so we should hear music in the same way". In 2023, the argument is still not fully settled. For some composers like Bach, HIP has more or less won the day. However, most people still perform his keyboard works on modern piano, which is a far cry from the harpsichords used by Bach. For others (like Beethoven), there have been attempts at playing his work with period instruments and smaller orchestras, but nearly all recordings use modern instruments and modern orchestras.

Classical instruments like the Strad are the same. In comparison to modern instruments, Strads are thin sounding and lack sonority. Their fame comes from their beautiful balance and singing tone. Modern violins are more sonorous and sound much richer. Now, whether you prefer Bach being played on a thin sounding Strad or a rich sounding modern violin is a matter of taste, just like you might prefer a piano for Bach over a harpsichord. I have a recording of a Beethoven piano sonata played on a replica Erard that was used by Beethoven. First impression is that it sounds like a toy, and I did not like it at all. Then I wondered whether it was the fault of the pianist (Ursula Dutschler) who was using modern tempi and not the tempi indicated by Beethoven (which these days, most musicians think is too fast).

I have also found that my own musical preference for the style of performance has changed over my 40 years of listening to classical music. When I was younger, I preferred Bach chorale works conducted by Richter or Klemperer for their huge scale and sheer richness of sound. These days I prefer the smaller scale historically informed performances, especially by Rudolf Lutz and Leohardt/Harnoncourt.

Comparing a Strad to a modern violin is the same as comparing any historic instrument to its modern equivalent. Violins have not evolved as much as pianos, so the difference is not as obvious. But an Erard or Graf piano from the 1800's sounds obviously different to a modern Steinway or Yamaha, and you will probably dislike the older pianos. This does not mean they are inferior instruments, they are just different instruments, and they need to be played differently.

So: that blind test comparing a Strad to a modern violin, with the modern violin winning, means little to me. Did the audience consist of people they picked off the street? Or were they professional musicians and musicologists? Just because there is a McDonald's nearly everywhere does not mean that they make better burgers, does it?

Do I prefer the sound of a modern violin over a Strad? Of course I do. But then, I have been conditioned through a lifetime of listening to modern instruments to prefer that kind of sound. But, would I prefer the Strad if I heard it with a different violinist, playing a piece with a period correct style? I don't know. I can give many examples where I prefer the older instruments, just like I can give as many examples where I prefer modern instruments, but this would be really boring for any non-classical music enthusiasts.
 

sound67

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Acoustic instruments aren't hifi gear. "Measuring" them makes no sense.

And, yes, good modern instruments are better than the originals. I can tell: I was a music critic first and became a string instruments seller.
 

kongwee

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It is all about the wood. If you have wood aged like Strad, you get the modern precise made and good sounding violin.
 

DVDdoug

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Luthiers have certain "techniques" like tapping on the wood and listening, etc., to "tune" the instrument and they can also make a judgement on the quality... And of course by playing it.

Companies that mass-manufacturer guitars MAY use some automated resonance measurements, etc., but I think in the end it comes down to expert-human judgement.

And musicians are artists and they often prefer vintage instruments, but usually it's a particular vintage of a particular instrument that's earned a reputation. If a famous musician used a certain instrument then a lot of people want to play the same thing.
 

GM3

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twosetviolin did some blind & guessing price of violins; interesting watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8q3zrCYMRw Here they're playing 'cheap' vs 10 million $ violins, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ZlqNTAPtU

But yeah when talking about measurements... Unlike hifi there's really no reference, so maybe it's more like wine/whisky than audio? Jim Murray crowned a cheap "Canadian whisky Crown Royal Northern Harvest Rye as ‘The Whisky of The Year 2016’.". Projection/volume seems a desirable trait, but might all be subjective in the end? As per the violinists mention in the above clips, some violinists might prefer some violins over others given their own playing style?

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-sound-of-a-stradivari-is-due-to-the-varnish/
A recent paper published in the journal Angewandte Chemie concludes that the secret lies in the chemicals used to soak the wood, most notably borax, zinc, copper, alum, and lime water.
 
OP
O

okok

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looks like blind test failed, even for top dogs

"soloists rated their favorite new violins more highly than their favorite old for playability, articulation, and projection, and at least equal to old in terms of timbre.
Soloists failed to distinguish new from old at better than chance levels."
 

Blumlein 88

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Luthiers have certain "techniques" like tapping on the wood and listening, etc., to "tune" the instrument and they can also make a judgement on the quality... And of course by playing it.

Companies that mass-manufacturer guitars MAY use some automated resonance measurements, etc., but I think in the end it comes down to expert-human judgement.

And musicians are artists and they often prefer vintage instruments, but usually it's a particular vintage of a particular instrument that's earned a reputation. If a famous musician used a certain instrument then a lot of people want to play the same thing.
I wonder about the tapping technique. I know some use it, and some say it makes no sense. One luthier had his own little website. He had a video on it where he played one of his completed guitars so you could hear it. When the song was over, he punched his fingers thru the top of it. It was frame covered in varnished paper. One can also listen to some cigar box guitars. When you hear the idea it sounds ludicrous, but I've heard some in person and they sound much better than you ever would have guessed.
 

dorakeg

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musical gears, some very high priced, how to determine the things are actually "better", or just worse than some others, like your expensive one can do one whole pitch lower than the others, more precise, and better (if not less) or good-to-hear thd
it can't be snake oil ain't it

I have to say that it's impossible to measure and determine which is better or worse.

Regardless of instrument, most important is still the person playing it. So, many factors affect the sound. Even the same person playing the same piece, there will still be minor variations in the music. Eg. If the person is frustrated, I am sure it will sound slightly different compared to when the person is happy. Sometimes, the person may not be in the mood to play, other times feels great..

This is also why I feel Strads are "special". It's not the violin. It rather the person feel sense of pride or joy when he/she is holding on to a Strads violin The person will likely play with vigour and joy...
 

Steve Rogers

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I know even at my low level there is an enormous difference between different piano sounds and also the sounds the piano makes when I play it. Its not that surprising is it, after all its analogue and large, equivalent to the large effect speakers have in a stereo system.
 
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