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Any reason to upgrade amp from Denon X3600?

chych7

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Looking for upgrades to my HT/music sound system, I've gone through the major hitters already for my budget (speakers - Philharmonic BMR, subwoofers - 2x HSU ULS15.2, room treatments, bass integration/DSP) and am now looking at amplification. Running everything off a Denon X3600, which has good measurements from the ASR review. I'm primarily looking at any improvements to audio quality for stereo music listening, so am considering some kind of stereo amplifier in the <$1k range, like a Hypex type of amp. Currently the Denon sounds great to me, plenty loud, no audible distortion.

What I can't figure out is how to interpret all the conflicting information on this forum. Do amps matter? Yes, no? Is a nice Hypex amp audibly different than a good receiver's amp (and not just audibly different, but enough to actually matter to show a subjective improvement)? There seems to be a lot of effort here to discern the different electrical characteristics of various amps (i.e. the "science"), but not a lot of effort to show what that means in the subjective experience (something "science" tends to avoid, but in the end, this is what really matters for the consumer of such products). Especially when considering that speaker distortion and psychoacoustcs can greatly mask any differences between great/good amps. Are higher end amps just jewelry, somewhat equivalent to fancy high-dollar cables (clearly pooh-poo'd on this forum)? Or do they really make an audible and scientifically provable improvement to the subjective experience? What do I do with ~$1k?
 
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chych7

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Well then, time to build a ABX switcher and evaluate this myself, since no one here seems to have anything to say. Good thing amps and things from Amazon have a trial/return policy, in case I don't find any difference. The science of audio can't avoid addressing the role of the observer; audio, by nature, only exists in our minds.
 

FrantzM

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Don't fall for upgraditis. You are apparently all set, Electronics are a solved problem and most amps sound the same within their safe operating limits... Don't bother. Save the money to buy a 93 inches OLED ;)
You have a superlative system. BTW.
Peace.
 

Shazb0t

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You're likely fine unless you need more power for dynamic range depending on how loud you listen, room/seating arrangement, and speaker sensitivity. The BMRs aren't the most efficient speakers, but they weren't designed for crazy high playback levels either. You could use an online calculator to check if you have enough amplifier power headroom for your desired listening level. If you do, then you're all set.
 

amper42

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I use the Buckeye NC502MP with my BMR Monitors. It's a great combination. That would offer a lot of extra power for the BMR's on the Denon 3600 if you are seated 11 to 12' away from the speakers.
 

itz_all_about_the_music

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Looking for upgrades to my HT/music sound system, I've gone through the major hitters already for my budget (speakers - Philharmonic BMR, subwoofers - 2x HSU ULS15.2, room treatments, bass integration/DSP) and am now looking at amplification. Running everything off a Denon X3600, which has good measurements from the ASR review. I'm primarily looking at any improvements to audio quality for stereo music listening, so am considering some kind of stereo amplifier in the <$1k range, like a Hypex type of amp. Currently the Denon sounds great to me, plenty loud, no audible distortion.

What I can't figure out is how to interpret all the conflicting information on this forum. Do amps matter? Yes, no? Is a nice Hypex amp audibly different than a good receiver's amp (and not just audibly different, but enough to actually matter to show a subjective improvement)? There seems to be a lot of effort here to discern the different electrical characteristics of various amps (i.e. the "science"), but not a lot of effort to show what that means in the subjective experience (something "science" tends to avoid, but in the end, this is what really matters for the consumer of such products). Especially when considering that speaker distortion and psychoacoustcs can greatly mask any differences between great/good amps. Are higher end amps just jewelry, somewhat equivalent to fancy high-dollar cables (clearly pooh-poo'd on this forum)? Or do they really make an audible and scientifically provable improvement to the subjective experience? What do I do with ~$1k?
The load your speakers place on an amp (i.e., impedence), as you well know, isn't strenuous/complex. So avoid "jewelry" and instead experiment affordably. E.g., pick up a used Hafler, Adcom, NAD amp and, assuming their signal-path electrolytic caps are still within specs, enjoy switching it in/out. Afterwards, resell it if it doesn't shine and twinkle enough.
 

Cote Dazur

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Do amps matter? Yes, no?
In your case, no, with your speakers, if your amp is not bothered by 6 ohms, which it is not, you are fine with the one you have,
What ever you can improve in your room set up, speaker positioning, etc... will yield vastly more drastic changes for probably much less money. Maybe it is time to enjoy what you have.
 

amper42

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In your case, no, with your speakers, if your amp is not bothered by 6 ohms, which it is not, you are fine with the one you have,
What ever you can improve in your room set up, speaker positioning, etc... will yield vastly more drastic changes for probably much less money. Maybe it is time to enjoy what you have.

I have listened to the BMR Monitors with the Denon 4700 internal amps and compared the sound to using the $700 stereo Buckeye NC502MP. To my ear, the BMR Monitor sounds noticeably crisper with the NC502MP. It's also a cleaner sound at louder volumes with the Buckeye NC502MP. I am glad I didn't take the advice here and stay with the Denon internal amps. To me, the Denon amps really aren't that great. They will pass at lower volumes and you may be happy with them until you actiually try the NC502MP. But if you have a nice pair of speakers I would certainly consider the NC502MP. :p
 

Cote Dazur

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the BMR Monitor sounds noticeably crisper with the NC502MP. It's also a cleaner sound at louder volumes
"crisper" and "cleaner", all good then, :)

At 1000 post on ASR, you are probably aware of what subjective opinions are worth to others, but at least it is good for you, I hope you will enjoy that "crisper" and "cleaner" sound at “louder” volume for a long time.:)
 
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chych7

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Don't fall for upgraditis. You are apparently all set, Electronics are a solved problem and most amps sound the same within their safe operating limits... Don't bother. Save the money to buy a 93 inches OLED ;)
You have a superlative system. BTW.
Peace.

I've already fallen for upgraditis, it's never ending... such is the nature of this hobby! I don't want to leave any stone unturned in improving audio quality, but I also don't want to turn "expensive stones" that don't do anything... I do enjoy my 125" screen and 4k projector, but am eyeing some of the newly released projectors. There is a separate budget for that upgrade :)
 
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chych7

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You're likely fine unless you need more power for dynamic range depending on how loud you listen, room/seating arrangement, and speaker sensitivity. The BMRs aren't the most efficient speakers, but they weren't designed for crazy high playback levels either. You could use an online calculator to check if you have enough amplifier power headroom for your desired listening level. If you do, then you're all set.

I use the Buckeye NC502MP with my BMR Monitors. It's a great combination. That would offer a lot of extra power for the BMR's on the Denon 3600 if you are seated 11 to 12' away from the speakers.

I am seated about 10 ft away from the speakers, but my normal listening level is around 70-80 dB. So that's like 1W of average power or something really low.
 
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chych7

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I have listened to the BMR Monitors with the Denon 4700 internal amps and compared the sound to using the $700 stereo Buckeye NC502MP. To my ear, the BMR Monitor sounds noticeably crisper with the NC502MP. It's also a cleaner sound at louder volumes with the Buckeye NC502MP. I am glad I didn't take the advice here and stay with the Denon internal amps. To me, the Denon amps really aren't that great. They will pass at lower volumes and you may be happy with them until you actiually try the NC502MP. But if you have a nice pair of speakers I would certainly consider the NC502MP. :p
If you can hear such an obvious difference, then it should be measurable with a microphone at the listening position. It would be valuable and informative if you could generate data from your system that shows this (after level matching the amps). Looking at things like distortion, clarity, decay, and impulse response (all can be generated from REW) could objectively support your observations. I personally would be interested in such data. Subjective assessments, on the other hand, I view with skepticism for amplifiers. I have been eyeing the Buckeye amp as part of my testing as well (and they have a 30 day trial).
 

Putter

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Looking for upgrades to my HT/music sound system, I've gone through the major hitters already for my budget (speakers - Philharmonic BMR, subwoofers - 2x HSU ULS15.2, room treatments, bass integration/DSP) and am now looking at amplification. Running everything off a Denon X3600, which has good measurements from the ASR review. I'm primarily looking at any improvements to audio quality for stereo music listening, so am considering some kind of stereo amplifier in the <$1k range, like a Hypex type of amp. Currently the Denon sounds great to me, plenty loud, no audible distortion.

What I can't figure out is how to interpret all the conflicting information on this forum. Do amps matter? Yes, no? Is a nice Hypex amp audibly different than a good receiver's amp (and not just audibly different, but enough to actually matter to show a subjective improvement)? There seems to be a lot of effort here to discern the different electrical characteristics of various amps (i.e. the "science"), but not a lot of effort to show what that means in the subjective experience (something "science" tends to avoid, but in the end, this is what really matters for the consumer of such products). Especially when considering that speaker distortion and psychoacoustcs can greatly mask any differences between great/good amps. Are higher end amps just jewelry, somewhat equivalent to fancy high-dollar cables (clearly pooh-poo'd on this forum)? Or do they really make an audible and scientifically provable improvement to the subjective experience? What do I do with ~$1k?
Get more speakers of course so you can use the multichannel capabilities of the Denon and maybe justify the purchase of the Hypex amp. $1000 can get a decent center and acceptable rears. You wouldn't need to add the Amp immediately. My response is only somewhat tongue in cheek.
 
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chych7

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Get more speakers of course so you can use the multichannel capabilities of the Denon and maybe justify the purchase of the Hypex amp. $1000 can get a decent center and acceptable rears. You wouldn't need to add the Amp immediately. My response is only somewhat tongue in cheek.
Ah I should have mentioned that this is already a 7.3.4 HT system. I am quite satisfied with the center/surrounds, subwoofers (which includes a near-field ported mid-bass subwoofer for tactile effects), and also tactile transducers and various room treatments (corner bass traps, first reflection absorbers, diffusers throughout the room). Really what I'm looking for is to see if there are more improvements to be had for 2ch stereo music listening, which is when I listen very critically. For movies, I find my current system more than meets my needs/desires, and I generally am less critical about the audio quality, vs. when listening to music.
 

Astojab

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Ah I should have mentioned that this is already a 7.3.4 HT system. I am quite satisfied with the center/surrounds, subwoofers (which includes a near-field ported mid-bass subwoofer for tactile effects), and also tactile transducers and various room treatments (corner bass traps, first reflection absorbers, diffusers throughout the room). Really what I'm looking for is to see if there are more improvements to be had for 2ch stereo music listening, which is when I listen very critically. For movies, I find my current system more than meets my needs/desires, and I generally am less critical about the audio quality, vs. when listening to music.
The only audible improvement might be a system with a different room correction. I have no experieces with Audyssey but saw opinions that Dirac is better or to be more precise more capable with more options to fine tune.
 

HarmonicTHD

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The only audible improvement might be a system with a different room correction. I have no experieces with Audyssey but saw opinions that Dirac is better or to be more precise more capable with more options to fine tune.
The jury is still out on Dirac vs Audyssey and mainly consists of subjectives opinions. Real hard facts are scarce and the one I have seen on this forum point a bit toward Audyssey or Dirac and Audyssey do pretty much the same and it depends a bit on your room / preference what works better for you.
 

Astojab

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The jury is still out on Dirac vs Audyssey and mainly consists of subjectives opinions. Real hard facts are scarce and the one I have seen on this forum point a bit toward Audyssey or Dirac and Audyssey do pretty much the same and it depends a bit on your room / preference what works better for you.
I would not claim I have an idea. I tried Dirac and it was good for my 2 channel System. What I would say is that Dirac WILL make more of a difference than adding a poweramp. I don't know, whether that difference is an improvement, but OP really wants to buy something there is at least a chance.
 
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chych7

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I should have also mentioned that I also went down the Dirac Live rabbit hole, and actually found that I like the way Audyssey sounds more.


Perhaps something like Lyngdorf or Trinnov would improve the sound, but those are way outside my budget at this point.
 

Astojab

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In that case you are probably done. And if you still have doubts, get an Amp switching device and a Hypex Amp with return policy and try it yourself in a proper Blind test.

Its's what I have done and very much to my dismay I didn't hear any difference between the excellent measuring Topping PA 5 and the not so well measuring Hegel H95. A Friend of mine was able to discriminate between the two but said it were only small differences.
 
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chych7

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Great, thanks to everyone for the inputs. I am going to go ahead with my own blind AB testing, and will also investigate audio measurements in this process and share the results. I think we really need a lot more audio data on amp differences, not just electrical data, which often goes way beyond audibility.
 
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