Any measurements of Macbook M1 base model's DAC?

[FujiwaraMokou]

We know Macbook since M1 Pro has way better DAC, but how about those that are released prior?
Are they any better than some DAC AMP combos on the market?

 

[mediocrebutarrogant]

I just switched to the macbook air m2 base model, 7hz timeless on headphone jack, tidal hifi, DAC manufacturers are pretty much obsolete now I think. What sound! better than any DAC with highest SINAD here any day!

 

[audixix]

I have a MacBook Air M1 - I'd find interesting a comparison of MB Air M1, vs. MB Pro 2021 and later, vs. MB Air M2 or better (I'm thinking of getting the MB Air 15" when they upgrade it to M3.)
I.e. it would be interesting to see if there are any measurable differences between the Pro and Air models, and how they compare to the M1 Air.
I read on this forum that sb has sent a MB Pro to amirm, but I could not find a review, does anyone know if this is still upcoming?

I'm referring to "Use high-impedance headphones with your Mac" https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212856

 

[Jhify]

From infos I got online and measurements I made myself on my macbook Air m1:

Worst case scenario Sinad is 85+, most likely about 90db, best case scenario about 98db.

I'll explain: I was kinda limited by my ADC and the low output power of the MB Air M1 I could only hit less than 20 dbfs so the noise floor of the ADC limited the sinad at 85db. If I could have had more power or a quieter ADC it would have most likely been better. Even with lack of power noise floor is still below -120db and 2nd harmonic at -100db so everything below hearing threshold and we can't expect less from apple.

(Maybe I did something wrong I'm not used to do musellements..)

When looking at the specs of the cirrus logic chip it says: Worst case: 85db, typical: 90db THD+N, so it makes sense.

Best case scenario would be if noise floor really low which could be possible, it'd match the specs of the apple dongle.

For comparison Macbook Air m1 jack output is somewhat on par with JDS The Element but with less power.

STME and multi tone were ok in the same range of specs.

I measured Mac mini M1 and got similar results.

I've got the Macbook Pro too but I didn't bother measuring as I would be bottlenecked by my ADC. But a Chinese website measured it at 98db sinad, stme and multitone etc were ok too.

The hight impedance feature works fine. We should expect the specs to be about the same (98db sinad) but with more power I think the MB pro outputs 3 Vrms max above 150 ohm.

Apple cares about making quality products and I would be very surprised if they make a broken products with distortions or noise floor within the audible range. Their Dacs are good quality and transparent. But they also care about their profit margin and they'll most likely keep using the same Dac chips and circuitry that gets the job done for a small cost and it's highly unlikely they'll try to improve those numbers as there is no audible benefits for the masses.

Maybe I'll get a smsl SU1 for my mac mini (used as streamer) for the sake of it, but only once my room treatment is completed. If you have a mac, an external dac should come after room treatment, speakers, room correction/DSP and amplifier. If you got all those those sorted then maybe a Dac is worth it in my humble opinion.

 

[Jhify]

Playing with the input gain of the interface best sinad I could get was 88db then I think the Macbook air is the limitation.

 

[holdingpants01]

I use M1 Air with DCA Aeon 2 Noire, I had some DAC amp before (iFi something) but to me they sounded the same and I've never found the output of Air to be low, so I gave away the DAC

 

[Jhify]

No doubt it's got plenty enough power to drive the vast majority of headphones out there. But with no input gain on my audio interface the mac macbook air could only hit -20db that's just what I meant.

 

[sam_adams]

Historically, most of the sound hardware on Macs of all types never had a SINAD much higher than 16 or 17 bits. The outputs always clipped severely at 0 dBFS and the inputs could not take more than +2 dB to +3 dB boost before clipping. So you shouldn't really expect much from the builtin hardware.

 

[Jhify]

Historically, most of the sound hardware on Macs of all types never had a SINAD much higher than 16 or 17 bits. The outputs always clipped severely at 0 dBFS and the inputs could not take more than +2 dB to +3 dB boost before clipping. So you shouldn't really expect much from the builtin hardware.

What do you mean I'm confused ? I didn't get any clipping from the output and used an external audio interface for the input.

 

[Jhify]

Measured the macbook pro today got 91 sinad but most likely limited by the ADC of my soundcard. Noise floor droped by +10db compared to the macbook Air and I would expect the same with distortions so it matches the chinnese website measurements at 98.

Interesting fact I got the apple dongle to mesure as well by curiosity and it picks up all the noise and distortion from the computer it's plugged into. For exemple the macbook Air m1 has two permanent harmonics at 8khz and 16khz and is was present in the dongle. same sinad.

The mac mini has a 50hz hum (50hz current in europe) with its harmonics and all of them where present through the dongle. Same sinad.

The dongle is intended to phone use so it shouldn't be an issue for most users.

 

[audixix]

I'm referring to "Use high-impedance headphones with your Mac" https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212856

The following questions will be somewhat off-topic (there seems to be not dedicated thread on the above Apple article yet - feel free to open one; perhaps this thread is also suitable: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/macbook-pro-amp-or-external-dac-amp.43962/ )

The questions:
1. I don't know that much about impedance vs sensitivity - I read somewhere that the Arya needs a lot of power despite having low impedance (35Ω). Does anyone know what this entails for the functioning of Apples "impedance detection" system?
2. How does it even work?

 

[DVDdoug]

The outputs always clipped severely at 0 dBFS and the inputs could not take more than +2 dB to +3 dB boost before clipping.

All ADCs & DACs hard-clip at exactly 0dB.

It's a limitation of integer-digital audio. 0dBFS is defined as the highest you can "count to" (positive & negative) with a given number of bits.

A 24-bit file has bigger numbers than a 16-file, but for playback everything is scaled to match the DAC and a 24-bit file isn't "louder' and a 24-bit file isn't clipped on a 16-bit DAC, etc.

 

[EdwardLionheart]

Hi
Hope I'm not hijacking
has anyone compared the MacBook Air M1 or M2 sound you get from the headphone jack via RCA direct to any hifi amplifier to the usb out to a dac to the same amp? assuming the outboard DAc to be decent. Ive been playing Spotify premium via an M1 phone out to a vintage tube amp using the Macs volume and it's pretty darn good.
Couldn't find an intro area so sorry bout that.

 

[audixix]

I am quoting the friendly person from levelaudio.at who commented on a side remark of mine on apples' system for high impedance:

"The impedance detection in the MacBook is just that: only impedance detection, which means that for high impedance headphones, the power is ramped up a bit - unfortunately, this doesn't work well for low impedance, but still inefficient planar magnetic headphones, I think it only kicks in at 150 ohms - and something like a Susvara has 60, but almost needs a speaker amplifier."

(I am now getting an element iii mk ii instead of a new macbook, I don't want to wait for the M3, and also want to have an amp for comparison anyway.)

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I would be more interested in knowing what the measurements would look like for the I Phone 15.

 

[Jhify]

Hi
Hope I'm not hijacking
has anyone compared the MacBook Air M1 or M2 sound you get from the headphone jack via RCA direct to any hifi amplifier to the usb out to a dac to the same amp? assuming the outboard DAc to be decent. Ive been playing Spotify premium via an M1 phone out to a vintage tube amp using the Macs volume and it's pretty darn good.
Couldn't find an intro area so sorry bout that.

I'd suspect the measurements of the M2 to be about the same as the M1. Considering your electronic chain the vintage tube amplifier is most likely the bottleneck and considering spotify prenium is 320kbps the mac DAC is fine and surpass those two elements there's no need for external DAC
Enjoy your music.

 

[Jhify]

I would be more interested in knowing what the measurements would look like for the I Phone 15.

What do you mean ? There's no jack output since iphone 7 if I recall correctly.

 

[EdwardLionheart]

I'd suspect the measurements of the M2 to be about the same as the M1. Considering your electronic chain the vintage tube amplifier is most likely the bottleneck and considering spotify prenium is 320kbps the mac DAC is fine and surpass those two elements there's no need for external DAC
Enjoy your music.

Thanks for your reply J. it's easy to get caught up with the amount of stuff being said about DAC's so I got to wondering if anyone here had done a direct comparison between the headphone out and the usb out (maybe I should make a separate post?) Your right in the end its only about the music The amp Im using is truly musical in fact so good for me I sold one regretted it so much that I bought another 2yrs later and they aren easy to find here haha. What changed was buying the Macbook. Id only ever used that amp with vinyl as my old Mac Pro's phone out was busted. The result was almost breathtakingly beautiful arm-hairs at attention so of course the old demon "but could it be even better" took hold hahaha.
Cheers

 

[Jhify]

Thanks for your reply J. it's easy to get caught up with the amount of stuff being said about DAC's so I got to wondering if anyone here had done a direct comparison between the headphone out and the usb out (maybe I should make a separate post?) Your right in the end its only about the music The amp Im using is truly musical in fact so good for me I sold one regretted it so much that I bought another 2yrs later and they aren easy to find here haha. What changed was buying the Macbook. Id only ever used that amp with vinyl as my old Mac Pro's phone out was busted. The result was almost breathtakingly beautiful arm-hairs at attention so of course the old demon "but could it be even better" took hold hahaha.
Cheers

Usually what people call "musical" with vintage/tube amps is the extra harmonic distortions they had to the signal. Some people may argue the "good way" to listen to music is to stay true to the source but don't listen to them there's nothing wrong with liking some extra spices on your meal. The macbooks are on par with desktop dac/headphoneamp that was considered as very good like 7 years ago. The numbers have gone crazy especially the last five years with the chinese manufacturers, but this his just engineering flexing. It's actually good to see and to know engineers are taking they job seriously especially for the price some products cost but it is way beyong humans hearing. You can still try for very cheap these days anyways and send the product back if you don't want to keep it. Smsl SU1 costs 80ish, smsl m300 SE costs100ish and they mesure both state of the art but I very doubt you'll be able to hear any difference at all.
As for the USB connection. USB is digital it's just 0s and 1s they're all the same. Some laptop can be noisy but macs are fine and nowadays most DACs filter those electrical noise no problem. USB used to be a thing long time ago lately there's nothing to worry about unless you happen to buy a defect product.

I myself got the smsl m300 se cause it's stupidly cheap but for a comparison it mesures on par with a 3000$ professional audio interface and better than most of the equipements our favorite artists use to record themselves.

Long story short. Speakers and room interaction are way more critical so I'd always suggest to invest on room treatment/speakers first.

Enjoy your music !

 

[EdwardLionheart]

Thanks again J. Very informative. Your reply is appreciated. I thought the advances in tech might be along those lines. I guess I'll stay as is unless I decide to get a dedicated streamer at some point later on then. Using the laptop as a part time streamer isn't always convenient. Yep spicy is nicey haha!