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Any interest in an ASR community speaker project?

MZKM

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I would like this speaker to have wide dispersion. So a waveguide tweeter does not interest me as much. We could try to get decent directivity matching in a two way by using an extremely robust tweeter, crossing over very low, and maybe modifying the baffle shape to affect tweeter directivity. I have eyed the Peerless DA25TX00-08 for a while and it looks promising to me. I have seen it paired with the Dayton Audio Esoteric series woofers which come in 5 1/2" and 7" sizes. Or we could just go with a 3 way.
Not sure what’s considered wide, but the Peerless tweeter that I’ve been mentioning (same as the AAM speaker just measured) is -5dB down @60° @8kHz.
 

QMuse

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That's where it's shite you have to use a crappy AVR , we can do better .

My AVR is Rotel and it's not crappy at all. But yes, it's 18 years old and modern audio industry can do better. If only they want to.. Which I'm starting to doubt. :facepalm:
 

hex168

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I was going to suggest the DA25Tx paired with the Anarchy woofer available via diysoundgroup. I think this has the opportunity to be close to a universal 'do everything' project. The Anarchy can be a bass monster if you are OK with a larger cabinet, but could also be used sealed in a small-ish cabinet for use as surrounds or with subs. The DA25Tx would allow an xover in the 1.6kHz range, helping mitigate the ~4kHz breakup peak (which is pretty mild for an AL driver) . Moderate cost - drivers would be about $250/pair.

Depending on how my personal experiments for my project go, I'm hoping to toss in a waveguide option for the DA25Tx, but that may not pan out.

As others have said, there are a bazillion 2-ways out there both commercial and DIY, so there's really not much new under the sun. This combo offers some interesting options, and doesn't break the bank.

The Anarchy drivers are awesome, from everything I've read. One of the best for a system without subs or with power to spare. One buys that low end with low sensitivity, 84.7 dB specified. Always tradeoffs, I guess.
 

TimW

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Not sure what’s considered wide, but the Peerless tweeter that I’ve been mentioning (same as the AAM speaker just measured) is -5dB down @60° @8kHz.
I am using the Pioneer based AAM as my main speakers right now and they do sound excellent. Although I do use them with sealed 8" "subs" crossed over at 200 Hz and running in stereo. If the result of this project is a similar speaker with equal or better performance on the Klippel then I would be happy to build myself a pair. But most people would probably prefer a speaker that can reach down to the typical 80 Hz subwoofer crossover point without volume limitations or excessive distortion. This probably requires the use of a woofer in the 5-7" size range which probably won't be compatible with the Peerless BC25TG15-04 because of beaming and high frequency extension limitations of such a woofer.
 

MZKM

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I am using the Pioneer based AAM as my main speakers right now and they do sound excellent. Although I do use them with sealed 8" "subs" crossed over at 200 Hz and running in stereo. If the result of this project is a similar speaker with equal or better performance on the Klippel then I would be happy to build myself a pair. But most people would probably prefer a speaker that can reach down to the typical 80 Hz subwoofer crossover point without volume limitations or excessive distortion. This probably requires the use of a woofer in the 5-7" size range which probably won't be compatible with the Peerless BC25TG15-04 because of beaming and high frequency extension limitations of such a woofer.
Yeah, it can’t really be crossed at <2kHz due to distortion and it‘s pretty much Omni at 2kHz. This is why it would be great in a 3-way :p
 

Lbstyling

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If 'value' is an agreed aim, I would suggest we take a look at the new purefi 6.5 inch woofer.

Measurements on it are exceptional, it would replace a sub, bass and mid driver so this is a big saving, + purefi will do big discounts for group buys (I think they will do one for $250 ISH I'f you buy enough.)

Mount that to a cabinet with a Hypex 2 channel plate amp, then add your top end of choice -ess heil (cheap on sale- limit ceiling reflections) or a SEOS horn (or other CD horn) with a de250 or similar.

DSP is built in, so we can do the crossover, then the user has the option of adding a filter on top for under 300hz for their room modes.

Done.

Make the horn stand alone conical and it will look like a mini Advantguarde Uno.

Looking at about $1600 all in.

What are duel subs worth to you? On top of a pair of top end speakers...?

Your looking at full CD, big SPL, heavy bass, point source down to 800hz or so, EQ built in to individual drivers and about 0.07% distortion across the whole range. Upgrade to the bigger plate amp (2x250w,. Or the FA 253 and bridge the 2 channels @500w) and your looking at somthing like 25/30hz capable and over 115db output.

Could even do a standmount version.
 
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617

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If 'value' is an agreed aim, I would suggest we take a look at the new purefi 6.5 inch woofer.

Measurements on it are exceptional, it would replace a sub, bass and mid driver so this is a big saving, + purefi will do big discounts for group buys (I think they will do one for $250 ISH I'f you buy enough.)

Mount that to a cabinet with a Hypex 2 channel plate amp, then add your top end of choice -ess heil (cheap on sale- limit ceiling reflections) or a SEOS horn (or other CD horn) with a de250 or similar.

DSP is built in, so we can do the crossover, then the user has the option of adding a filter on top for under 300hz for their room modes.

Done.

Make the horn stand alone conical and it will look like a mini Advantguarde Uno.

Looking at about $1600 all in.

What are duel subs worth to you? On top of a pair of top end speakers...?

Your looking at full CD, big SPL, heavy bass, point source down to 800hz or so, EQ built in to individual drivers and about 0.07% distortion across the whole range. Upgrade to the bigger plate amp (2x250w,. Or the FA 253 and bridge the 2 channels @500w) and your looking at somthing like 25/30hz capable and over 115db output.

Could even do a standmount version.

What re your diy capabilities? Have you built speakers before?
 

Lbstyling

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What re your diy capabilities? Have you built speakers before?

A fair few, yes. Currently working on a JMLC 350hz horn/2452SL with a AE TD10m and a Hypex fusion 253. Its not a mile away from what I have suggested. The Purefi Driver would be much more aesthetically pleasing than my design due to the much narrower baffle. I have been considering the changeover myself.
For the purpose of a forum design, a JMLC horn would not likely be the optimal choice due to narrrowing directivity.

The drawback of this design would be vertical directivity will be poor below 800hz due to larger C to C spacing with a conical horn. I don't actually think it matters though in the real world (much) as the crossover frequency is at the very bottom of the critical mid where we have poor perception of delay/timing and distance -(700-7khz). You could swap it for a eliptical horn....but I think they look terrible as a stand alone component. You could have it mounted in a cabinet, but the cabinet will be wide and its already been done, its called the 'Econowave'. Amazing, but not going to be pictured winning the 'home designer product of the year award'

My problem is time. I just don't have what is needed these days to start another project myself.

I don't think just another 6" + 1" speaker is a good idea though, I will say that much. This is what you get if you 'design by committee' though.

The question is: what would the order of primary design goals be, and why?

If the aim is to Ace an Amir test, I would expect you want a 10" coaxle cone and compression driver, (BMS?) with a Rasberry Pi to run FIR filters, and a pair of Hypex amps in a very rounded ported cabinet using duel constrained layering.

Vertical and horizontal directivity would be very good, but not excellent. Distortion would be low, FR should be essentially perfectly flat to within 0.2db.

Cost would be low, but the price is horizontal directivity would not match the design I suggested in my last post. It would likely rate higher on the spinorama though as its not weighted between horizontal and vertical (as far as I'm aware.)
 
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mk05

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...contributing something other than opinions, let me know what you like doing and are good at. I know for a fact that we have the tools between us to come up with a really interesting and refined design. Can you cut a baffle? Can you make a PCB? Can you donate parts? Can you make accurate measurements? Etc.
Well, I don't know how to do any of the above, but I do have curiosity and intrigue! It sounds like you don't want any more opinions other than trying to find people who can do things, but perhaps one more perspective...

For me, a complete newbie, an easy DIY speaker would be great. I wouldn't care if it didn't sound like an endgame speaker, nor would I expect it to. It will be more about the fact that this project pulled me from mere curiosity into active involvement - hopefully get me into making exploring more esoteric DIY designs with confidence. Also getting to know more of the community who can help me build down the road.

That said, I do have some thoughts. Making something simple as a community project, then sending it to Amir as you suggest, reminds me of the Pass Amp Camp amplifier that got trashed here at ASR. Discussion of intent/delivery of that amp aside, I fear a simple ASR DIY speaker will not appease. Therefore, while I personally would like for ASR DIY Round 1 to be easy so I can participate, I would rather that ASR develops something incredible. I don't mind cheering from the sidelines and maybe commissioning from someone already making the DIYs.

For this, I think pro-inspired makes sense to me. In every industry, trickle-down technology from professional side is considered favorable - all but audio for some reason. I think this has to be due to the dogma or selling "an idea" over performance for so many years. At least, that is the underlying theme that I have gathered. However, it is slowly changing with direct to consumer and DIY gaining traction; generally a trend to big change in industry in terms of perception. Reminiscent of the rise of DELL and the various boutique DIY makers that followed.

I think that Active DSP would be great. Perhaps the "limit" of an active speaker has always been the amplification factor of the plate, but new plates measure excellently and pretty much all Class D problems of yesteryears are gone. ASR experts can develop a proof of concept of a flawless cabinet that works well with the drivers, then the crossovers will simply be a filter design that anyone here can download and use, right? For connections, SpeakON would be interesting, since I am reading more about advantages and original usage intentions.

Now for some thoughts on roadmap:
1) ASR DIY Round 1 could be developed as a bookshelf that can be used as fronts, with ability to move as rear surrounds. Why?

2) Round 2 should piggyback to be the true main towers - or more accomplished/advanced bookshelves (along with subwoofer augmentations) - perhaps with control for 5.2 ecosystem. Keeping the "pro-inspired" theme of keeping all speakers same is fine too, but would like that 5.2 DSP ability.

3) Round 3: Center Channel. Final build for the 5.2 ecosystem. Design like MTM or MTWTM so with a switch, can be set stereo L/R for a desktop use, or mono for Center. I personally use 1 central speaker under my 6 computer-panels in my office, and I listen to this 1 speaker more than anything, maybe 14hrs a day for 5-6 days a week for many years. Writing this post has just alerted me of this fact. Personally, this should be the first build (with an accompanying first of two subwoofers). It's different and I haven't seen this concept anywhere. But I understand history has subscribed to 2.x instead of 3.x, so perhaps center should be last. Nevertheless, a Center that can change directivity switching from L+R fuction (narrow) to mono (wide) would be really appealing for me. And, as a newbie, being able to tune base down near-field with a knob or a program is convenient!
 

KSTR

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I'd be in for a large (12"/15") coax, could be based on one of the more affordable PA specimen, something like a Celestion FTX1225 (though there are even cheaper models around). Yet another 6.5"+1" is, well, bland... no matter how well exectuted.... strictly IMHO, of course. And maybe open-baffle (with some sub assist if required), and trinaural/trifield rematrixing to 3.x. Three very distinct design decisions that could be ear-opening, a completely new perspective added to what 2-channel source material can do for "realism" (after all, audio playback is about creating the most plausible illusion). Serve that cake with full DSP XO and "room correction" for the icing. I repeat, strictly IHMO, and most certainly not for everyone....
 

Lbstyling

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The more I think about it, actually a CBT would be better. There are no commercially available designs that I am aware of at the moment. I don't know if that is due to copyright reasons, driver availability or driver costs, but still. They should measure very well as long as we can get a small enough cheap tweeter.
 
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hege

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I'd be in for a large (12"/15") coax, could be based on one of the more affordable PA specimen

This would be nice. Though I hate that DIY always tries to be "cheap". Just go for TOTL, it's not that much more expensive.

There's many local DIY and commercial solutions using B&C 15FCX76/15CXN76 or BMS 15C262 etc. But nothing that's measured to ASR levels (though I know Taipuus are meticulously designed).
 

KSTR

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CBT's are a very interesting concept for sure but rather wasteful on resources, it uses so many drivers most of them running attenuated and the design axis position and direction is the floor so you need quite some distance to get into the beam. And then it still will have the sound of a source being located at the floor, something I personally find very irritating, no way this can sound any "large". I always prefer speakers mounted above ear height firing slightly downward for some sense of "big stage" realism.
 

KSTR

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There's many local DIY and commercial solutions using B&C 15FCX76/15CXN76 or BMS 15C262 etc. But nothing that's measured to ASR levels (though I know Taipuus are meticulously designed).
Never heard of Taipuu... looks damn good. Point is, would we do any better and at significantly reduced price, say, < 1/4th of what his large DSP-active 2-way costs, my guess would be around ~3k grand total or so, for a pair..
 

bigjacko

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Most of the cost spend on making speakers are designing, the cost of good drivers are not that expensive. Getting good drivers for 3 way probably will set you $500 to $1000, but it has the chance to be best ever speaker for certain type if designed right. I would suggest one of this speaker. Another thing I think we can do is design the box. Commercial speakers can get some features like damping or shapes that helps in certain ways, but diy people can only use flat boards for the box. Of course if it does not help, then we do not need to design the box.
 

hege

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Never heard of Taipuu... looks damn good. Point is, would we do any better and at significantly reduced price, say, < 1/4th of what his large DSP-active 2-way costs, my guess would be around ~3k grand total or so, for a pair..

Taipuus start from ~15k€, so yes it would be trivial to go for fraction of the price.

I already basically have bottom parts of the large 3-ways (see my avatar.. BMS 18N862 used there too). I could simply do the same BMS 15C262 tops as Taipuu for 220€+220€ plus 300€ for outsourced bare cabinet builds. Taipuu uses Fouraudio PPA DSP-amps, but they are not available so Hypex/MiniDSP/Behringer etc would be needed. I know the designer (VituixCAD creator btw) tweaked the filters etc quite a lot, so it would be quite a work to duplicate. Anyway the point of my babbling is that it would be great to have a properly measured basic design for such a 2 or 3-way coax design. Pretty much everything else is out there on the market already for prices that don't require DIY.
 
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somebodyelse

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Tim, the Dayton amp you linked is quite interesting. That might be a viable product for a small inexpensive speaker. I still favor a passive for the low price point but this might be a really interesting option.

Would someone @WolfX-700 or @amirm be willing to test this unit?
They're also sold under the Sure Electronics and Wondom brands. The JAB3 boards have the DSP and are designed to work with the non-DSP JAB2 boards.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/search?search_query=jab
http://store.sure-electronics.com/product/AA-AB32255
 

Ilkless

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A Horbach-Keele array. Impossible to find on the market, great directivity.

I could envision a SWMTMWS with relatively affordable drivers. The Scanspeak Discovery/SEAS Prestige/SB Acoustics/Vifa stuff would fit pretty well.
 
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