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Any interest in an ASR community speaker project?

OP
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Are there not web-based firms who will just spit out a 3-D printed thing if you supply the file? I was under the impression this was not too expensive these days.

A good service is craftcloud.com, which provides quotes from many providers
Cost increases quite a bit with size. A 4" waveguide is 20 dollars each, not bad, but an 8" is more like $55; this is for PLA, and the maker in question may use a low quality setting.

The cnc baffles do look really nice.
 

DeruDog

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Are there not web-based firms who will just spit out a 3-D printed thing if you supply the file? I was under the impression this was not too expensive these days.
That's a good thought. If the design could include the 3D files that would be supplied to a printer, that might be a good solution. I don't know what it costs, though, so that might be prohibitive.
 

somebodyelse

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My choice of the tic interface rather than grbl is because it was easier for me to understand. The tic documentation is very good and simple for someone running windows, which seems to be the dominant platform for speaker designers. It controls one stepper, but that's all you need for this application.
It looks like a decent and reasonably priced driver. I may be worrying about worldwide availability too much - it is sold in the UK but nowhere near as widely as the arduino and ubiquitous poulu-pattern stepper drivers. Anyway there's no harm in having alternatives, and I'm up for contributing code.
The software I am making is called by ARTA directly but creating a version with a gui that has buttons for home and then 5/10/15.. degrees would not be hard. This would enable use with other measurement interfaces. It wouldn't be automated, but it would make measurements a lot easier.

One thing I need to figure out is how to take inputs from a configuration file in python (I have been using python for less than 30 hours). This will enable user setting of constants needed for positional calculation; microstepping setting, gear ratio and stepper motor degrees/step.
In case you've not found it already, configparser is probably what you're looking for. I'd aim to avoid microstepping unless you've tried it with your driver and motor already - it's not always as silent as you'd hope.
I may turn this design into a semi commercial venture; figuring out all the little parts to build this has taken a lot of time. It would include a build manual, DWG files for someone cutting the wood on a CNC, drawings for someone just using a circular saw/chop saw, a link to all the different fasteners on the fastener website I like, the software, 3d print files for all the 3d printed parts (the drive gear, a little plate which holds the motor/homing sensor, a diagram showing how to wire the tic to the homing switch and everything. If anyone here is interested in testing, when I get mine done I can share the design details and you can give me some feedback. On the other hand, if you're the sort of person who knows what grbl is, then you can probably do all this by yourself!

I think the younger/more technical makeup of ASR is not the best audience for such a product, but there are a lot of less technical speaker designers out there who could really use a good measurement platform.
Seems good to me - aim for something that can be made with typical speaker building tools, and provide a full reference design. I suspect the large 3d printed gear may be overkill and that you could get away with friction from the belt around a disc, or clamping the belt to it if you can accept not having the full 360 degree rotation.
 

dwkdnvr

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Seems good to me - aim for something that can be made with typical speaker building tools, and provide a full reference design. I suspect the large 3d printed gear may be overkill and that you could get away with friction from the belt around a disc, or clamping the belt to it if you can accept not having the full 360 degree rotation.

Agree - belt-on-belt was what I was thinking, but as you say you don't get full 360 degree capability with that unless you're really careful. . I'm not sure how much reduction will really be required, though. I'm not sure you'll get much more than maybe 20:1 with a simple single gear/pulley stage. If you need more then you need either an intermediate gear/pulley or else go to a worm setup. A stepper with integrated gearbox might also work OK but I've never worked with one of those - they tend to have higher backlash, but probably not enough to be a concern in this application.
 

somebodyelse

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I don't imagine you'll need all that much torque unless you've messed up with the centre bearing and rollers. It's more about getting from 1.8 degree motor steps to whatever the chosen increment is (5 degrees) in a whole number of steps. Those silly-cheap geared steppers may be worth a try though - like you say a little backlash, but probably not enough to be a problem here.
 
OP
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I don't imagine you'll need all that much torque unless you've messed up with the centre bearing and rollers. It's more about getting from 1.8 degree motor steps to whatever the chosen increment is (5 degrees) in a whole number of steps. Those silly-cheap geared steppers may be worth a try though - like you say a little backlash, but probably not enough to be a problem here.

The center bearing right now is a 1/4" bolt but I may step that up to 3/8 or 1/2 or m10.

I haven't installed the bearing (it actually seats into a 3d printed part, not the wood) but I've been testing the platform with the non-rotating casters I got for this purpose and the force required to overcome inertia is more than I imagined. I got a luggage scale and will test about how much force is required to get the thing moving.

My hope is that a stepper moving slow enough with smoothly ramping acceleration will be able to get the thing moving and stop it accurately. The tic software allows you to adjust all this.

Regarding the gear, I decided to go with this design for a few reasons. The first is positional accuracy - a belt could slip even if it is unlikely in a well optimized design. The second is strain on the axle and motor mount - my thinking is the tension required to keep a belt snug is much more than that required to get a gt2 fiber reinforced belt taut. These gt2 belts have very little stretch to them.

The third is that it creates a mechanical advantage; by my calculations, with the cheapest tic driver and a 20 dollar NEMA 17 size motor I get .23 pound feet, but with the gear ratio I'm working with now I have 2 pound feet, which if I'm not mistaken is equivalent to 4 pounds at two feet, which is where I'll be measuring later. The most powerful tic board can put out 4 amps to the motor, and looking at the stepper website the most powerful 4A stepper is only 2.5 foot pounds. The mechanical advantage can be anything you want, of course - I'm assuming 25T/225T, but if I did 10T/216T I would be looking at 5lb feet. Leverage is no joke.

The most important reason to use the gear, however, is that it allows exact stepping of degree increments without microstepping. From what I've read here, holding torque is vastly diminished when microstepping, so the approach of simply microstepping your 1.8 degrees /32 to .05625 degree increments comes with a 95% reduction in holding torque.

Part of me is tempted to design this thing just using a beefy motor, however, there is a certain appeal to the simplicity, and you don't need to spend money on a 3d printed gear, a drive gear, a belt and some kind of sliding motor mount. The python code I have written can accommodate non-whole numbers for positioning, it just rounds them to the nearest integer. So I may explore that, it would definitely be a more elegant design if it worked.

The most fun part of the build has been trying to source a homing switch. In cnc applications limit switches are normally used to sense proximity are unidirectional, in the sense that the obstruction the switch senses comes from one direction. In a rotational application, the switch might be activated by clockwise or counterclockwise movement. Ideally, a non contact switch would work. I got some big weather sealed roller limit switches but I felt they were too substantial. The best solution I've come up with is to use an optical interrupter switch, which shines an IR LED through a gap and senses when the connection is broken. According to the datasheets for these products, the flag which blocks the LED can be quite narrow, perhaps under 1mm wide, so it can be used for this application, but it should be as far from the axis of rotation as possible.

I'm not a great mechanical designer but I am having a ton of fun designing this thing and building it out of scraps from my basement. There's something very appealing about making a device with better than .1 degree accuracy literally using trash.

Regarding angular resolution - I think for speaker measurements, my suspicion is that only at the front of the speaker and only at high frequencies is this kind of accuracy even close to desirable. The most important thing is to be able to quickly capture polars to make design easier.
 
OP
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Update; the lateral force needed unloaded is a bit under 2lbs at 1', and loaded with 45#, 8# at one foot. This is without a bearing and the wheel surface very smooth so I think things could be quite a bit better.
 

Lbstyling

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I have a CNC router, and can make baffles like this out of MDF, if that would be useful for experimentation. That said, I think the idea of a "community speaker" would be one that could be made without a 3D printer or a CNC router. I think it would be best to make a design that can be made with MDF, a table saw, and a router.
That's really great data there. Ultimately, with this speaker at least, the diffraction simulation is just a way to get an idea of what diffraction will look like. Naturally, full polar measurements at 10 degrees will be made, which will show diffraction effects pretty clearly.

The reason I'm going to the trouble of making a nice, accurate, tall platform is that I realize that quality of measurement is now the 'hard part' of speaker design. If you have really good data you can design a crossover with all the graphs in the cea 2034 right under your nose.

Of course, in many ways, the fact that the software assumes a perfect pistonic driver is a major advantage. It means that in theory at least, when a design shows excellent measurements in the software, but not in the real world, 1) you were never going to get an outstanding design with that driver anyway, and 2) you know with higher certainty what the causes of poor off axis measurements in the real world are!

Poor pistonic behavour is largely more observable when pushing the driver too high, low or hard for its ideal pass band, this is where 3 way designs subtly show higher performance as the ear is sensitive in the crossover region where both drivers are (usually) at their limits.
 

dwkdnvr

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I found one thing that might be the game changer for DIY active crossover, it is the HiFiTOY. The website is : https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/hifitoy . It is still not out yet, but if the spec is true it will be the end game for DIY speakers.

That project appears to be related to this thread at DIYAudio https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/320595-tiny-tas5558-tas5624-power_dac-smps.html . Last meaningful post was a year ago, so there's a pretty decent chance it may be a dead project. The last posts seem to be evaluating a TPA3251 amp, which would mean that it took a turn away from the TAS5558/PowerDac idea at some point to become a more conventional DSP->DAC->ClassD setup. (much like the 3E Audio units mentioned earlier in this thread)

IMHO the 'power dac' approach is probably obsolete at this point. The TAS chips run open-loop as far as I know, and so their performance ceiling isn't all that impressive. (see the review of the Panasonic XR57 for an example of this type of amp).
 

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bigjacko

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Yes it is designed by IVX, he recently replied to 9038s post saying he is too lazy to do it. I think it will take a long time for IVX to pump it out, hope it is not obsolete and we can get it sooner. We need to push him more so he does not forget about it.:)
 

hex168

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Trying to simplify the 8" waveguide for easy implementation: how about stacked foam core boards each cut to a template, and fill in the steps with mortite? not pretty, but it should work.
 

zermak

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Yes it is designed by IVX, he recently replied to 9038s post saying he is too lazy to do it. I think it will take a long time for IVX to pump it out, hope it is not obsolete and we can get it sooner. We need to push him more so he does not forget about it.:)
Isn't this designed by @IVX?

One of his product was reviewed here before.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-e1da-9038s-bal-portable-dac-amp.8424/
He could work on a 2x TPA325x with DSP so we will have our all in 3-way amplifier (with one TPA325x in bridge mode for the woofer) :)
 

Lbstyling

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I'm considering making a BMR CBT line array.....will let you lot know if I do it so you can poke at it;)

Looking at it, I'm surprised no one has made one before.?
 

Vij

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Yeah me too. You can get a 3d printer with a 500mm square bed for under 1000 dollars now, and I got a very high quality unit with a 300mm bed for 700...you can get a unit that's probably totally passable for like 200-300 dollars now. The material cost is not outrageous at around 22 dollars a kg of PLA, but the killer is time. Printing with fine layers and good surface finish takes forever, which isn't a problem if you're doing it for fun, but if you're ordering parts from an online printing service, everything gets really expensive.

I had ordered some little flanges to connect the rst28f to a waveguide. These parts are about 4" in diameter and maybe 4mm thick or less, and it was like $20 for both. I just ran an estimate and it would cost me less than a dollar in materials and only 3 hours of time.

Hi. Does it make sense to use SB Acoustics SB26STWGC-4 Fabric Dome Tweeter with Wave Guide. Seems like it would save a lot of effort getting a waveguide and flange made.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...6stwgc-4-fabric-dome-tweeter-with-wave-guide/

Interested in building Opt 3. 2 way with waveguide using SB Acoustics drivers and DSP plate amp so very interested in this project.

Appreciate all the effort and insights. Take care.
 

GelbeMusik

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Not much of a progress so far. Did You give up? In case, would You mind to publish the reasoning behind this?
 

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I think in the interest of simplicity, versatility and logistics, we should essentially be trying to make a M106/R3, for much cheaper.

But it appears no one can agree on what TYPE of speaker is the best, and at what cost. Some people love open baffle, some floor-standers, some line arrays, blah blah blah.

But a standard 2 way bookshelf/stand mount speaker is the most reconisable and relatable form of playing program material that everyone in the world knows, and knows how to get running. The M106 or R3 are arguably the best versions of this, they are just expensive-ish. Everyone is also capable of buying thier own subwoofer, or DIY'ing one, especially if they are DIY'ing speakers.

And then if people want to get exotic, you could add be tweeter versions or upgraded crossover parts what ever.
 
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HooStat

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I think in the interest of simplicity, versatility and logistically, we should essentially be trying to make a M106/R3, for much cheaper.

But it appears no one can agree on what TYPE of speaker is the best, and at what cost. Some people love open baffle, some floor-standers, some line arrays, blah blah blah.

But a standard 2 way bookshelf/stand mount speaker is the most reconisable and relatable form of playing program material that everyone in the world knows, and knows how to get running. The M106 or R3 are arguably the best versions of this, they are just expensive-ish. Everyone is also capable of buying thier own subwoofer, or DIY'ing one, especially if they are DIY'ing speakers.

And then if people want to get exotic, you could add be tweeter versions or upgraded crossover parts what ever.

I think you made the point perfectly. The M106 is a 2-way and the R3 is a 3-way! But I agree that that is the kind of target that we should aim for, regardless of whether it is 2 or 3 way. :)
 

McFly

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I think you made the point perfectly. The M106 is a 2-way and the R3 is a 3-way! But I agree that that is the kind of target that we should aim for, regardless of whether it is 2 or 3 way. :)
Doh!. Correct, but I was more thinking cu.ft rather that ways.
 
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