Any DAC above $2 is a scam you DO NOT pay for Audio Quality you pay for Features (Article)

[GeorgeWalk]

Motherboards within the last decade has had some really really good $2 onboard Realtek DAC they come with all sorts of things now japanese gold capacitors and shielding for noise and what not, you route that through a decent headphone amp and do a blind test, you couldn't even tell the difference.

Just look at JDS Atom Amp for $99 this thing is about on par with anything else on the market for maybe thousands of dollars for all we know. With a HD 650 you would be wasting money on anything other than an Atom to power it. We are at that point remember when cheap cable internet came out from comcast how everybody was like "great time to be alive" yeah same can be said about Audio now

As for me I want something similar to the Atom but that is sold on Amazon and is made of Aluminum the Atom sadly is not.

My current picks are either Topping D30 with some Amp maybe A30 amp but I heard it isn't that good due to bad review? either that combo used on Amazon or a new K5 Pro Fiio

Budget is $150

Get a JDS Labs O2. I have both the Atom and the O2. I can't hear any difference between them. The O2 has and aluminum case.

 

[john5220]

Get a JDS Labs O2. I have both the Atom and the O2. I can't hear any difference between them. The O2 has and aluminum case.

I ended up buying the Fiio K5 Pro from Amazon

Will I be disappointed? or does it sound exact like Atom and O2 combined?

 

[GeorgeWalk]

I ended up buying the Fiio K5 Pro from Amazon

Will I be disappointed? or does it sound exact like Atom and O2 combined?

I don't think so. I think most of the equipment today sounds really good. Although, my ears aren't what the used to be.

 

[ajawamnet]

I really liked this article by Toms and it sums it up perfectly, they had a bunch of senior audiophiles in this blind test and none of them were able to tell which was the $2 DAC and the $2000 DAC

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html

I constantly have to remind fanatic money wasting clowns on head fi about this all the time. Also burn in isn't real it is your brain adjusting to the sound, I have no idea why seemingly educated continue to spread propaganda and audio myths in the audiophile community. (well I do it has to do with buyers remorse)

Look how I got a HD 58x and the difference between the jubilee and my old HD 555 is small. I somewhat attributed it to my Xonar DG sound card with DAC and AMP built in not being up to scratch but lets be real that really isn't the case as my built in Onboard Asus Crystal Sound 2 audio is only a small downgrade from the Xonar DG card. Sure its noticeable but not a big amount. And I Want to bet alot of it can be fixed with an EQ

The only "burn in" I can see possible is the worsening of any electrolytic caps that may be in the signal path.

And the only real difference for any old recordings come with a remix, maybe a remaster.

See my remix of the old LZ tune here: http://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/remixoflz.html .
You won't need any fancy, expensive DAC to hear that... tho the webmaster at LZ.com said he couldn't.

Some of what Steve Wilson did - like the old Chicago II remix he did - now that's a difference. But as to any modern system - beyond the speakers-room/headphone/listener interface - is so subjective that it's not quantifiable, so therefor prone to silly marketturds

Dunno....

 

[garbulky]

As long as we're only talking about dacs they will do just fine.

I'm glad that I spent less than $2 for my Emotiva DC-1 DAC or I would have felt ripped off!

 

[Hypnotoad]

My PC has the Realtek ALC892 which laughs at the ALC887 they tested. So is that equivalent to a $4,000.00 DAC?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I guess it depends what the qualifier is for equivalence. If it's just SQ, I'd be willing to bet in a volume matched DBT you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference.

 

[BDWoody]

My PC has the Realtek ALC892 which laughs at the ALC887 they tested. So is that equivalent to a $4,000.00 DAC?

In a purely audible sense...yep.

 

[avm]

I really wish amirm would do a proper review of the Realtek ALC887 and the ALC892

 

[solderdude]

I really wish amirm would do a proper review of the Realtek ALC887 and the ALC892

The problem here is that any measurements Amir would take would only apply to that specific MoBo, power supply and enclosure.
Its like saying you want the AK4490 measured.
Take 10 DACs with the AK4490 and they all may measure and even audibly differ based on filter choices and implementations of post filtering and layout.

Consider not only the used chips+drivers is important but layout, schematic design and leakage currents of the used PC are even more important.
Measuring 1 specific config thus only says something about that specific device.

 

[avm]

The problem here is that any measurements Amir would take would only apply to that specific MoBo, power supply and enclosure.
Its like saying you want the AK4490 measured.
Take 10 DACs with the AK4490 and they all may measure and even audibly differ based on filter choices and implementations of post filtering and layout.

Consider not only the used chips+drivers is important but layout, schematic design and leakage currents of the used PC are even more important.
Measuring 1 specific config thus only says something about that specific device.

You are absolutely right solderdude. There are just so many variables that cannot be comfortably discarded to show what such chips really are capable of. But reviewing a modern motherboard and comparing it with an equally modern AV receiver's DAC would be, I pressume, revealing. Lately I've been led to believe that modern AV receivers with HD audio codecs are not worth the money. I would be astonished to find out that a 2$ chip would outperform the DAC stage of a modern AVR.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

The headphone dongle for Iphones is a $10 item containing a very capable dac...

 

[bennetng]

Some of my (and Archimago's) measurements of ALC892's DAC...
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...gh-of-a-sample-rate-is-enough.4037/post-95240
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nese-optical-spdif-switches.10051/post-276392

and ADC, it actually beats mansr's Steinberg UR242
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...terface-recording-suggestion.5980/post-136257

 

[AnalogSteph]

and ADC, it actually beats mansr's Steinberg UR242
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...terface-recording-suggestion.5980/post-136257

Mind you, there clearly is something very b0rked in the clock generation of this UR242 for whatever reason. ADCs need clean clocks far more urgently than DACs, which have some tricks up their sleeve that help reduce the effect of jitter dramatically.

Speaking of clock generation, my experience with Realtek chips (whether ALC269 or ALC898) has been that you better stay away from 44.1 kHz and multiples on the recording side. The D/A side is fine, but the ADC suffers from compromised dynamic range and other signs of high jitter. As their anti-alias filtering also has some limitations, 96 kHz is probably the best choice overall.

Implementation for these onboard audio chips does seem to vary a lot. Audible interference and poor low-end response seem to be the most common complaints. Some chips will also clip prematurely when implemented with a +3.3V supply only, rather than with an additional +5V - which a lot of people may never actually notice if they don't tend to crank the master volume all the way up. I bet that you'll find any number of both perfectly acceptable and decidedly flawed implementations of the common ALC887 and ALC892, depending on the level of penny pinching, experience of board designers, and sheer pot luck.

 

[watchnerd]

Nothing double-blind about any of my 'evidence'. Just saying I can hear the difference. And I heard the difference when I wasn't expecting to hear it. The CD player, for example, just sounded better via its analog out than going digital to the integrated amp. Now that I have the CD player going to the RME then to the amp it sounds better (but only slightly, tbh) than going to analog to the amp.
But my digital streaming now sounds much much better. So that's the reason for the RME.

When you get down to the actual actual details, yes, I'm talking about an entire unit. The DACs themselves may not be the issue but instead the pieces around the DAC. And I'm fine with that - I'm not buying a chip, I'm buying a device to convert the digital signals into analog.

Did you level match everything?

 

[watchnerd]

To @BDWoody 's point, not only did DAC chips achieve transparency quite a while ago, I suspect we're living in the final golden age of mass market standalone DACs before they become obsolete because the mass market has moved entirely to wireless things with built-in DACs.

The audiophile market will, of course, keep DAC separates alive for all the same reasons that it keeps zombie topologies and technologies alive for decades.

 

[bennetng]

I bet that you'll find any number of both perfectly acceptable and decidedly flawed implementations of the common ALC887 and ALC892, depending on the level of penny pinching, experience of board designers, and sheer pot luck.

My ALC892 is from this board ($62 in 2015)
https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/B85M Pro4/index.asp

 

[mikewxyz]

I'm surprised that no one referenced the test by Archimego (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/05/blind-test-results-part-4-do-digital.html) in this discussion. Apparently, there are a few who can tell the difference between a $2 Realtek codec on a motherboard and a real DAC chip in a Oppo player.

I agree with the general premise that you don't need to spend a lot to get fidelity.

 

[JJB70]

To @BDWoody 's point, not only did DAC chips achieve transparency quite a while ago, I suspect we're living in the final golden age of mass market standalone DACs before they become obsolete because the mass market has moved entirely to wireless things with built-in DACs.

The audiophile market will, of course, keep DAC separates alive for all the same reasons that it keeps zombie topologies and technologies alive for decades.

I think even today standalone DACs are a niche product. People buying wireless speakers and headphones just assume (correctly) that the built in DACs just work provided the product offers the file/format compatibility they want. How many people buying wireless digital speakers give much thought to the onboard DACs (or amplifiers for that matter)? Outside of an audiophile micro-niche DACs were commoditised years ago.

 

[watchnerd]

I think even today standalone DACs are a niche product. People buying wireless speakers and headphones just assume (correctly) that the built in DACs just work provided the product offers the file/format compatibility they want. How many people buying wireless digital speakers give much thought to the onboard DACs (or amplifiers for that matter)? Outside of an audiophile micro-niche DACs were commoditised years ago.

+1

And not just mass market products. It's at the audiophile level, too.

If I have an KEF LS50 Wireless, Devialet Phantom, B&W Formation Duo, Dynaudio Focus HD, Elac Navis, etc*, what do I need a standalone DAC for?


* Harman seems behind the curve in this segment.