Any audible difference between Topping DX1 (only DAC) and more expensive DACs? For STAX X9000 electrostatics.

[spectre]

Hi all, I currently have a Topping DX1, and am using it only as a DAC. Chain is currently DX1 --> SRM-700S --> STAX SR-X9000 headphones.

I am wondering if there will be any audible difference if I upgrade to higher model in the Topping lineup (can be standalone DAC or not). I'm open to other brands as well.

I am generally skeptical of different DACs and whether they actually make any serious difference with today's technology, so I want to know if things honestly even get better than a DX1's DAC with line level out.

Thank you.

 

[lucian]

Dont think here is any limitation on the DX1 compared to other DAC's. so objectively here won't be any improvement. but if you like to tinker - just go for it and p(l)ay around.

Measurements of Topping DX1 USB DAC/HPAmp - L7Audiolab

台式设备 国内卷厂拓品（Topping）的低端产品线其实一直不是很完整的，解码从599元的D10s开始，搭配上他家的L30-2已经总价过了千元。即使是最便宜的一体机PA3s也已经达到了四位数的价格，在数百元价位中一直没有相应的产品，直到这款 Topping DX1 出现

www.l7audiolab.com

 

[Aryzon]

No there won't be.

 

[LTig]

Only if you go for a DAC with EQ (like RME ADI-2 DAC, or the Qudelix 5k) and use it to equalize your headphone.

 

[solawind]

You porbably will hear a difference, and many (most?) people hear a "sound signature" or whatever you want to call it after switching DACs. But it is only placebo because human hearing is seriously affected by sight and expectations. In a blind test, there will be no difference.
Nevertheless, people really do hear a difference, just not because of the sound.
So if someone is telling you what changes in sound switching DACs makes, it is not because they are a deaf idiot; it is because of how human hearing works.

 

[spectre]

Thanks all. I see Amir has measured a bunch of different DACs and some of them measure better than others. However, I am guessing that even though there are ones that measure better, there is no practical difference because whatever the measured difference is, it's completely inaudible to humans?

 

[lucian]

http://ban:8686/

Thanks all. I see Amir has measured a bunch of different DACs and some of them measure better than others. However, I am guessing that even though there are ones that measure better, there is no practical difference because whatever the measured difference is, it's completely inaudible to humans?

ofc here is a limit. thats why armin has a rating - everything in green/blue is more than good enough.

 

[solawind]

it's completely inaudible to humans?

Human hearing vary a lot, mostly because of age and training. But I guess it’s a safe assumption that anything in the green and blue range in Amir’s SINAD rating sounds the same, if no issues revealed by other measurements besides SINAD.

I did a lot of ABX testing (using an Arduino-controlled USB relay) and never found any difference between the desktop DAC and the DAC dongles I have. Some DACs suffer from implementation bugs, so it is possible to distinguish them using specifically made test tracks, if you know about such issues.

 

[spectre]

Is it actually possible that modern DAC chips, e.g., the implementations by ESS versus those by AKM, will actually produce different sound? Is it possible that they are coloring the signal in some way, or is that not really possible anymore and all placebo?

Several years ago, I had two different good quality audio interfaces, and their output on my flagship level studio monitors were clearly and obviously different. The output from this $100 or so Mackie interface had clearly tighter bass and sounded better, whereas the output from this more expensive prosumer Audient interface was clearly whooshier. I'm pretty confident I could blindly distinguish them. I wonder if this was due to other parts of the output circuit introducing distortion, or due to differences in DAC chipsets, or both. That, to me, was the clearest example of audible differences in DAC conversion.

 

[lucian]

if they are implemented correctly you will not be able to differentiate them in a double blind test.

you might perceive different sound when comparing them without blind test though.

 

[antcollinet]

Is it actually possible that modern DAC chips, e.g., the implementations by ESS versus those by AKM, will actually produce different sound?

If there were an audible difference it would show up in the measurements. Our measuring instruments are way more sensitive than our ears.

It doesn't at audible levels.

So - no, no different sound.

 

[spectre]

I like the consensus here because it means I get to save money. Feels a bit funny feeding an expensive electrostat setup with a "cheap" DAC. I guess the only reason I'd get another DAC is for features like Bluetooth, PEQ, or something.

Question if anyone sees it: Are the EQs (equalizers) built into some DACs (like Topping's) better than using something like Soundcore on your computer (MacOS)?

 

[DVDdoug]

Question if anyone sees it: Are the EQs (equalizers) built into some DACs (like Topping's) better than using something like Soundcore on your computer (MacOS)?

it's hard to get the exact same settings with two different DACs. So one will probably sound "better" than the other. And parametric EQ is more powerful/flexible than graphic EQ but graphic EQ is easier to "play with" to make quick adjustments.

 

[LTig]

Question if anyone sees it: Are the EQs (equalizers) built into some DACs (like Topping's) better than using something like Soundcore on your computer (MacOS)?

Difficult to say as it depends on the implementation. There is much more computing power available on a PC though, so in principle a software EQ could be more precise. On the other hand an EQ in the DAC works independent of the CPU load in the PC.

 

[Ropeburn]

You guys with your DX1s are so lucky. I'm jealous!

Quite impossible to get one under 10,000 moneys. A mint one was offered for 150,000€ once...

 

[Chuckser]

Hi all, I currently have a Topping DX1, and am using it only as a DAC. Chain is currently DX1 --> SRM-700S --> STAX SR-X9000 headphones.

I am wondering if there will be any audible difference if I upgrade to higher model in the Topping lineup (can be standalone DAC or not). I'm open to other brands as well.

I am generally skeptical of different DACs and whether they actually make any serious difference with today's technology, so I want to know if things honestly even get better than a DX1's DAC with line level out.

Thank you.

Have you demoed the Topping OCTO DAC. I have an Audio -GD-->STAX SRM006tS -->STX SRM-L407. They sound excellent but the soundstage is a little less than promised. I know I need new valves. However, I have a cheap Behringer UPHORIA 404HD and in some respects I prefer it to the RME ADI2 I sold recently, it's quite noisy, otherwise I would be using it regularly. The Behringer uses the same Cyrus Logic chips as the OCTO and what I liked was the huge (Huge) sound stage via my FOCAL Shape 50 monitors which I sold before getting the STAX. When it comes to measurements it's not right up there with the market leaders but my hearing isn't good enough to tell the difference, as the other responders have said. If you're looking for a different presentation I'd try the OCTO. I'll bet it's smooth with a big sound. For £500 I think it's worth a punt. If you don't like I'll buy it off you cheap (lol).

 

[Chuckser]

Difficult to say as it depends on the implementation. There is much more computing power available on a PC though, so in principle a software EQ could be more precise. On the other hand an EQ in the DAC works independent of the CPU load in the PC.

I've seen some measurements of the Topping EQ and it does add a significant amount of distortion, the RME adds about a decibel. I've just got hold of a ESI JUli@ PCIe soundcard. I don't think we've seen measurements of it but the specs are good and perhaps some more EQ horsepower.

 

[Chuckser]

If there were an audible difference it would show up in the measurements. Our measuring instruments are way more sensitive than our ears.

It doesn't at audible levels.

So - no, no different sound.

You're right. You're listening to PCM at the end of the day. As Mark Levinson has been complaining for some time. We could always add more dither lol.

 

[voodooless]

However, I have a cheap Behringer UPHORIA 404HD and in some respects I prefer it to the RME ADI2 I sold recently, it's quite noisy, otherwise I would be using it regularly. The Behringer uses the same Cyrus Logic chips as the OCTO

No it doesn’t, it uses CS4272, not CS43198. They are 15 dB apart in performance.

 

[Chuckser]

Is it actually possible that modern DAC chips, e.g., the implementations by ESS versus those by AKM, will actually produce different sound? Is it possible that they are coloring the signal in some way, or is that not really possible anymore and all placebo?

Several years ago, I had two different good quality audio interfaces, and their output on my flagship level studio monitors were clearly and obviously different. The output from this $100 or so Mackie interface had clearly tighter bass and sounded better, whereas the output from this more expensive prosumer Audient interface was clearly whooshier. I'm pretty confident I could blindly distinguish them. I wonder if this was due to other parts of the output circuit introducing distortion, or due to differences in DAC chipsets, or both. That, to me, was the clearest example of audible differences in DAC conversion.

I was reading an interview with the Marantz HD-DAC 1 designers, and they were saying the power supply stage is the most difficult to design. Perhaps that explains the lack of tightness in the bass. That wouldn't show up in a single or 32 tone test. Electricity is slippery in the exteme and even under the high voltage conditions spin networks can work against the flow. Intercomponent shunt and intercomponent impedances cause problems outside the DAC chip as you've observed.