Anthem AVM60 Review (AV Processor)

[yanm]

This is why I challenged you to test your audiblity skills in the last part because you may be able to hear how well they implemented the DSP processing and band limit filters by toggling ARC on and OFF with no EQ file uploaded. It isn't bad sounding but it does change the character of sound slightly. These minute differences happen with all AVR's and HT processors as it has to do with the nyquist theorm and dependency on the DAC, ADC and DSP circuits to apply correction. It makes it very difficult to compare a HT procesor or AVR to a 2 channel DAC or ADC that does signifigantly less processing. Much of this is not documented or shown in the measurements. While the measurements did appear to reflect a poor measurment perfomance, Anthem does have a good sounding implementation of their room correction and continues to improve upon it.

I finally did a randomized ABX test with my wife as subject. A was the input with ARC on but with no ARC settings uploaded and B was ARC off - both inputs were level matched. As there is no ARC settings, one would expect both inputs to sound the same. Out of eight tracks, she could correctly guess only twice if X was A or B. My son did the same test in parallel with also only three out of eight correct guesses (different ones than my wife though). In this setup (CD quality only, no high-res), I would say that ARC on/off are not really distinguishable by us - even though, I've still a feeling they sound differently... Maybe with a high-res source it would be different...

 

[Rottmannash]

Careful with that assumption.

View attachment 112710
A Quick demonstration of Transformers I's initial fight. Didn't scan the whole movie, so it might not be the peak.

Rear levels aren't that much lower and I have seen other movies in which the rears actually peaked higher than the fronts. It's very mix dependent.

What screenshot is this from? Supercool.

 

[Rottmannash]

For myself? None.
I deploy correction full range (in my case 40Hz-20KHz, since I don't use a sub) and am done with it.
I enjoy Dirac's simplicity.

Some other folks might want to tinker with the filters themselves, Dirac does not grant you access.
You can only set the frequency range of the processing and the target curve.

Can one purchase Dirac for use on an AVR that doesn't have it internally?

 

[yanm]

Can one purchase Dirac for use on an AVR that doesn't have it internally?

Yes but it will need additional hardware, check e.g. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series
It has limitation as you have to place it before your DAC or use a miniDSP with its own DAC... so it somewhat limits what is possible to do in combination with an AVR.

 

[Rottmannash]

It is very true that RC can't fix a poor room ABOVE the transition frequency (and that is where things like room treatments play a key role).

And RC cannot fix all problems with room modes below the transition frequency (proper placement of speakers, subs, and listener are vital).

But if one infers that one can correct everything without EQ, I would suggest that once those two elements above are in place, then RC is actually the only thing that can solve remaining room mode issues, since bass trapping to solve things way down low takes traps that are either several feet in depth, or an array of tuned traps that are so numerous one might as well have used giant traps that are several feet in depth.

I just Googled transition frequency-am I to understand these room correction programs work from 20 to 20K? But that they are better at fixing problems below the transition frequency?

 

[Rottmannash]

Yes but it will need additional hardware, check e.g. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series

ok. Thanks. I'll check that out.

 

[Rottmannash]

Yes but it will need additional hardware, check e.g. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series
It has limitation as you have to place it before your DAC... so it somewhat limits what is possible to do.

I know we're getting off-topic but how would one place the Mini DSP before the AVR's DACs?

 

[yanm]

I know we're getting off-topic but how would one place the Mini DSP before the AVR's DACs?

That‘s why it is limiting, you can only apply to one external input AFAIK. There may be smarter way of using it but I don’t know them... and I also was off-topic with my ARC posts .

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Can one purchase Dirac for use on an AVR that doesn't have it internally?

I use the Dirac Live processor in a DAW, since my computer is the source for 99% of all things audio.
Only exception would be 4K BluRay, since it is too old for the dumb hardware encryption shenanigans.

I just Googled transition frequency-am I to understand these room correction programs work from 20 to 20K? But that they are better at fixing problems below the transition frequency?

Depends on the speaker. It does wonders for my crappy rears, apart from a slight image shift I do not notice much change on my Focal fronts.

What screenshot is this from? Supercool.

NUGEN Halo downmix in my DAW setup, since I use a 4.0 speaker configuration.

 

[nathan]

I just Googled transition frequency-am I to understand these room correction programs work from 20 to 20K? But that they are better at fixing problems below the transition frequency?

Yes. Most can work 20-20k and many can be configured to work in a more limited range.

Better than what? There are things that only room setup and configuration can help with but there is also a role for EQ, especially to deal with smoothing down peaks in response that are not caused by poor person, speaker, sub placement.

Some people choose to correct the room even above the transition frequency. ARC like many systems let’s you choose.

 

[Rottmannash]

Yes. Most can work 20-20k and many can be configured to work in a more limited range.

Better than what? There are things that only room setup and configuration can help with but there is also a role for EQ, especially to deal with smoothing down peaks in response that are not caused by poor person, speaker, sub placement.

Some people choose to correct the room even above the transition frequency. ARC like many systems let’s you choose.

"Better than what?"

Don't know what you mean. Ah-I think you were misunderstanding my poorly worded question. It should have said, "But that they (ARC, Audyssey, Direc Live) are better at fixing problems below (vs above) the transition frequency?"

 

[yanm]

"Better than what?"

Don't know what you mean. Ah-I think you were misunderstanding my poorly worded question. It should have said, "But that they (ARC, Audyssey, Direc Live) are better at fixing problems below (vs above) the transition frequency?"

Short answer: the room is corrected below the transition frequency and the speakers are corrected above it, which may or may not be good

Longer answer:

First, you may want to read that article: Overview and Approach to Room Acoustics | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum. Below the transition frequency, the measured response is mostly determined by the room. Above, the speakers mostly determine the response. As an example, you could refer to my earlier post in this thread (ARC results): above 250Hz the responses of the left and right speakers (in red: before correction) are mostly identical. If room correction is applied above the transition frequency, the speakers rather than the room are equalized. This is not a bad thing per se as it makes the system more transparent. On the other hand, you may have chosen your speakers because your like their tonality and this is lost after room correction.

There are also two additional points to consider. Firstly, good speakers pairs have typically a matched frequency response (both amplitude and phase) to allow for a good imaging. Room correction may alter this matching because often the correction is applied on each speaker independently: amplitude matching will stay good or improve but it is unclear what happens with phase matching (likely it worsens). Imaging may be altered/degraded with room correction. On the other hand, phase matching isn't as critical as amplitude matching, so it may not be audible. Secondly, speakers and microphones tend to become directive at high-frequency. If measurements are not taken very carefully, the room correction may correct measurement artefacts rather than real issues at high frequency (for example, Anthem historically limited the highest frequency correction to 5kHz).

 

[nathan]

"Better than what?"

Don't know what you mean. Ah-I think you were misunderstanding my poorly worded question. It should have said, "But that they (ARC, Audyssey, Direc Live) are better at fixing problems below (vs above) the transition frequency?"

@yanm described it in excellent detail so I think that you have an answer to the question?

 

[Rottmannash]

Short answer: the room is corrected below the transition frequency and the speakers are corrected above it, which may or may not be good

Longer answer:

First, you may want to read that article: Overview and Approach to Room Acoustics | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum. Below the transition frequency, the measured response is mostly determined by the room. Above, the speakers mostly determine the response. As an example, you could refer to my earlier post in this thread (ARC results): above 250Hz the responses of the left and right speakers (in red: before correction) are mostly identical. If room correction is applied above the transition frequency, the speakers rather than the room are equalized. This is not a bad thing per se as it makes the system more transparent. On the other hand, you may have chosen your speakers because your like their tonality and this is lost after room correction.

There are also two additional points to consider. Firstly, good speakers pairs have typically a matched frequency response (both amplitude and phase) to allow for a good imaging. Room correction may alter this matching because often the correction is applied on each speaker independently: amplitude matching will stay good or improve but it is unclear what happens with phase matching (likely it worsens). Imaging may be altered/degraded with room correction. On the other hand, phase matching isn't as critical as amplitude matching, so it may not be audible. Secondly, speakers and microphones tend to become directive at high-frequency. If measurements are not taken very carefully, the room correction may correct measurement artefacts rather than real issues at high frequency (for example, Anthem historically limited the highest frequency correction to 5kHz).

Thank you very much. That is a very concise and informative response,

 

[Rottmannash]

@yanm described it in excellent detail so I think that you have an answer to the question?

Yes. Thanks.

 

[Jim - where is The Abyss]

Just wondering...have we lost all interest in getting a response from Anthem?

 

[nathan]

No

 

[danzilla31]

Just wondering...have we lost all interest in getting a response from Anthem?

I think Amir said a little bit back in the thread that more is to be revealed so I think something is in the process. If not if they don't respond back well that says something there as well though it wouldn't be the answer I think some of us are hoping for

 

[Jim - where is The Abyss]

I wish Amir was my neighbour, I would lend him my MRX1140.

 

[infinitesymphony]

I wish Amir was my neighbour, I would lend him my MRX1140.

With enough donations over time, we could start an ASR retirement community.