It looks like Anthem uses the ESS chip not the one on this spec sheet, apparently this is an early document before they decided to use ESS which they claim is a much better DAC but their implementation around it was improved over the original design.
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No what? I provided the facts, if you don't like the AKM4499 and prefer the ESS9038Pro, that's up to you, it doesn't change the fact that it has specs comparable to the ES9038pro that the avm90 uses in the production models.
Personally I am okay with either one, but again ymmv, obviously.
It's not that I don't like the AKM DAC I have just never heard a system with AKM DAC's that doesn't sound flat, I know much of this has to do with the Implementation but just haven't seen a great sounding AKM system. I definitely prefer the ESS DAC and I think most people would agree with that.
Audiophile Level DAC's
For the AVM90, Anthem uses very high-end audiophile-level ESS DAC's that work at 32bit/768kHz. This is one of the improvements that came from the delay in the initial shipments of the AVM90. The Anthem engineers had more time to evaluate all of the best DAC’s available. We’ll digress a bit here, but one of our all-time favorite surround sound processors from a pure audio standpoint was the Classe SSP800. It just sounded like a high-end piece of two-channel gear. Interestingly enough, a few of the team at Anthem used to be associated with Classe and had their own personal SSP800’s to compare the test samples they made when developing the revised AVM90. They totally nailed the audio in the AVM90, it sounds much better than our old SSP800 for pure two-channel audio, which is saying a lot. With the AVM90 your sound will be smoother and sweeter with deeper bass extension and a more effortless presentation. If you are considering either the AVM70 or 90 and plan to use your home theater for music listening, you will definitely appreciate the great DAC’s in both of these units, but the AVM90 is a substantial jump up in audio quality.
Regarding DACs and hearing differences—i am no where near your skill. I would agree with your statement that it is to “do with implementation”.
To be clear, I fully agree, that it is theoretically true about the importance of "implementation", but in practice?? The chance for a manufacturer to use a top notch expensive DAC IC, to not implement it properly, or more than good enough to take advantage of the chip, is every slim. That is not to say it never happened, but I think most of such talks could be largely due to the following:
a) excuse (easy to do by any) manufacturers used to justify their use of lower spec DAC ICs.
b) as above, we often other similar excuses, such as "it doesn't matter which IC, all but the cheapest DAC ICs are sonically transparent anyway..
c) as a), b) or other reasons not listed, via hearsay from print magazines and now the internet, that keep re-forcing such talks, so now there are tons of people just repeating the same myth (okay, call in semi myth as they might still be some truth to it in some specific cases) that it is not the IC itself that is important, but the implementation.
Another reality to consider is, one can easily google the topic, the fact that manufacturers (e.g. TI for sure) often provide evaluation boards, similar to that on the power amp side such as Hypex, Purifi and others, such that DAC, AVR, AVP, Integrated amps don't even have to do their own design unless they want to custom design their own for their own reasons/applications.
I would like to suggest that we, on ASR, science based forum, to stopping helping manufacturers to find excuse for not using the higher model DAC ICs (doesn't need to the the top model such as the ES9038, or AK4499, but how many the mid range models such as the ES9018, AK4493, 4497, or TI's PCM1795, 1796 etc., and "implement" them well enough by at least doing it to the DAC manufacturers, i.e. ESS, TI, AKM, Cirrus Logic/Wolfson's standards/recommendations.
DAC manufacturers have vested interest to help audio devices manufacturers to implement their chips properly for their own benefits, and obviously, reputation.
Take a look:
AK7709 x AK4499EX Sound Design Board | Solutions | Audio & Voice DSPs | Products | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)
Please download from this page for details of the sound solution demonstration board developed by combining our best-performing DSP and flagship DAC.
Don't we find that look similar to Denon, Marantz's own DAC boards, in their marketing info?
ESS Evaluation Boards | ISMOSys
Evaluation Boards specifically to analyse the audio performance of ESS Audio chips. ESS Evaluation Boards from ismosys.com
ismosys.com
Thank you for the clarification. We all have our own preference, that's completely understandable.
I guess you still missed the points I made in my original post, that is, Anthem originally intended to use the top AKM DAC IC for their flagship AVM90, but seemed (most likely) that they switched to ESS's, also selected the top (one of the top) model ES9038Pro, after the AKM factory fire because by then, those higher end AKM DAC ICs were in sever shortage situation. Anthem was not the only one affected, others such as Onkyo, Denon, Marantz had to do the same, that is, switch to other manufacturers such as TI and ESS.
As others posted, Anthem might have only used the advertised AK4499 in the prototype stage for the AVM90 (on one really knows for sure as Anthem never confirmed that either), and because of launch delay (due to issues, bug fixes etc.?), by the time of official launch, they have already switched to the ES9038Pro and that was, as we all know, a fact.
While no one can be 100% sure, based on collaborative evidence, the switch from AKM to ESS for the AVM90 is due to the short stage, as again, by official launch time, the shortage of the AKM ICs were already severe, so they really didn't have choice but to resort to ESS, that does make DAC ICs that are widely accepted as among the best, if not the best. Some of the early versions of the AVM70s made before the AKM factory fire did manage to have the AKM IC, not the flagship, but the lower tier AK4490. In fact, the one Amir measured, based on the timing, would have the AKM DAC chip.
I hope this is clear, and we have no reason to debate anything about the DAC thing any more.
Edit:
I found the email response from Anthem, when I contact their customer support last year:
Pasted from their email response:
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I finally got the AVM 90, there is a tremendous amount of flexibility with the system. Prior to this I had the Onkyo PRSC5530 Preprocessor which had the Classic Burr Browns and low XLR Connections for 11 channels, 2 Subwoofer although it was older it did sound amazing with Dobly Atmos Capabilities and 4K passthrough. Out of the Box the AVM 90 already sounded slightly better, after running Arc Genesis and especially the automatic phase adjustments and room correction on all speakers it simply blew me away. Anyone that claims the AVM 70 sounds the same as the 90 is just not listening properly as I have heard both and the 90 is much better, as it should be due to the hardware improvements and extra touches put into the 90. I was searching hard for something right in the middle of an Integra and the Lyndorf but honestly with the sound I'm getting for the price I would not go up to the Lyndorf or Trinnov and yes I have heard both of those as well. I couldn't be happier with the sound stage, musicality and just shear ability to tweak this thing to anyone's liking.
It helps to have good knowledge of Computers as the software and Mic setup can be a little buggy with driver compatibly issues but all and all after getting through those issues I'm very happy I took the leap from my PRSC-5530. I feared that I would end up with something to close in sound quality to justify the price, if that happened I was planning to return it and go for the Lyndorf, but that's not at all what happened.
I have measurements from my room but I want to do more tweaking on this thing, right now I can't imagine it sounding better but since I was constantly tweaking my Onkyo over a long period of time I want to give this one at least a few months of tweaking before I post anything. I can say one thing, I was able to get it dialed in pretty close to great in a short time which took months on my Onkyo to get a happy medium setup, I love the profiles, setting and mapping adjustments, you can do just about anything with this unit, and although some still want to use their Mini DSP I would say it's not necessary on the 90, maybe on the 70 where folks complain about the lack of bass, but not on the 90 with the phase matching it just knocks it out of the park. I only paid 6k for it new on a thanksgiving sale so that in itself was a win, the Lyndorf would have set me back 13/14K plus tax.
I stand corrected, they delayed shipment of the AVM 90 during covid allowing them to use the ESS9038Pro in the AVM 90, for the 4 independent subs you also get 4 independent ES9038Q2M Dacs as part of the design they matched the Q2M's to get better bass. I broke down and bought an AVM 90 and I'm not disappointed.
I have a bit of an update as I found out why 2 channel audio sounds so amazing on the AVM 90 unit, they actually use the ESS 9822 DAC for 2 Channel which has incredible specs. Note that the Toping DAC that's highly touted here also used ESS Dacs which is kind of proving my point on the better sounding net net results are the great sounding ones tend to use the ESS DAC's.
I have a bit of an update as I found out why 2 channel audio sounds so amazing on the AVM 90 unit, they actually use the ESS 9822 DAC for 2 Channel which has incredible specs. Note that the Toping DAC that's highly touted here also used ESS Dacs which is kind of proving my point on the better sounding net net results are the great sounding ones tend to use the ESS DAC's.
I think you've got something mixed up. The ES9822 is not a DAC chip, but an ADC.
Edit: Actually that ADC board looks the same as the one in the AVM70.
Would be great if you could post the DAC board, if you can find it, likely underneath the ADC board (just guessing), it should show at least two pieces of the ES9038Pro. May be a snake camera could be used for the discover, to avoid having to disassemble anything.
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Why would the Q2M get better bass?
In terms of SINAD, the Q2M is 2 dB lower. Other than that, the Pro is 3 dB better in DNR, but at 129 dB even the Q2M would qualify to be considered "SOTA" even by Amir's high standard. The difference between the Q2M and Pro, from what I understand from ESS is, the Q2M is suitable for lower power design whereas the Pro does not have such requirements.
Also, obviously as I mentioned, another difference is that the Pro is an 8 channel DAC, vs the Q2M's 2 channel only. To me, if Anthem did use the Q2M for the sub channel, it would be for reasons other than cost, the Pro obviously costs more so it make sense to use the cheaper Q2M for the sub channels. Did Anthem tell you they in fact used the Q2M for the 4 subs, and/or Zone2?
Regarding being able to hear differences in matched double blind sound presentations, I enjoyed reading this from Audioholics.
www.audioholics.com
Audio Listening Test That Fooled the Hollywood Sapphire Group
Some of the most highly trained audiophiles in the industry were asked to do a blind “A-B” listening comparison test of two audio circuits. Were they able to hear a difference, or were they fooled?
To golden ears, nothing can convince them, they only believe what they want to believe. If they pay a lot more for something, it makes sense that they will hear the better sq they expect to hear.Regarding being able to hear differences in matched double blind sound presentations, I enjoyed reading this from Audioholics.
Audio Listening Test That Fooled the Hollywood Sapphire Group
Some of the most highly trained audiophiles in the industry were asked to do a blind “A-B” listening comparison test of two audio circuits. Were they able to hear a difference, or were they fooled?
Yes, I called them they said my unit serial number has the ESS 9038Pro DAC's. I was reading up on the ES9822 and looking over the spec sheet but it's a Analog To Digital Converter after looking closer at the spec sheet, I was basically looking at the image of the board and initially thought it was a DAC only to see the details on the spec sheet. https://www.esstech.com/products-overview/analog-to-digital-converters/
There is a correction, the spec sheet shows the 9822's are ADC's as I was corrected on this. So the unit has 9038Pro DAC's those 9822's in the photos are Analog To Digital Converters. https://www.esstech.com/products-overview/analog-to-digital-converters/I have a bit of an update as I found out why 2 channel audio sounds so amazing on the AVM 90 unit, they actually use the ESS 9822 DAC for 2 Channel which has incredible specs. Note that the Toping DAC that's highly touted here also used ESS Dacs which is kind of proving my point on the better sounding net net results are the great sounding ones tend to use the ESS DAC's.
Still hoping Amir will put it on the bench in 2024?
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